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Michael Collins, Apollo 11 astronaut, has died

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Re: Michael Collins, Apollo 11 astronaut, has died

#151

Post by pwg »

mulmen wrote: post #120
pwg wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, wouldn't the simplest explanation for the LM returning to the CSM before the TEI burn be for the simple reason of returning the two crew-members who went to the lunar surface to the CSM before initiation of the TEI burn?

Yeah, of course, but that doesn’t mean that was the only reason, and since that had to happen maybe TEI relied on the return of the astronauts and/or LM from the Lunar surface. My point was just that if our only information is that the LM returned to the CSM and was jettisoned before TEI we can’t deduce that the LM was not needed for TEI.

If that was the only information, then yes, we can't deduce whether it was, or was not, needed.

But there is other information available:

https://lithub.com/what-if-we-got-stuck-on-the-moon/

Command module pilot Mike Collins, who could only keep orbiting in the mothership while his comrades waited out the countdown to lunar liftoff, worried enough for all three of them. “I have been flying for 17 years, by myself and with others,” he would write in his post-mission memoir. “But I have never sweated out a flight like I am sweating out the LEM [liftoff] now. My secret terror for the last six months has been leaving them on the moon and returning to Earth alone; now I am within minutes of finding out the truth of the matter. If they fail to rise from the surface, or if they crash back into it, I am not going to commit suicide; I am coming home, forthwith, but I will be a marked man for life, and I know it. Almost better not to have the option I enjoy.”

Two key sentence fragements: "leaving them on the moon and returning to Earth alone" and "If they fail to rise from the surface, or if they crash back into it, I am not going to commit suicide; I am coming home, forthwith". Both indicate that Collins fully believed he could execute TEI should the LM fail to return. The only way he could possibly "return[ing] to earth alone" should the LM "fail to rise from the surface" would be if the CSM could execute TEI without the LM ever returning from the lunar surface.

Which would indicate that the LM was not required in any way for TEI.

Re: Michael Collins, Apollo 11 astronaut, has died

#152

Post by lmm »

yarg wrote: post #126
dokem wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to imagine that bitter-sweetness he must've felt. At the same time, how could he ever complain. Maybe he took no issue, but I'm sure everyone in the program was hoping to be the first man.

I can't imagine that he took issue; these guys generally seemed to put the mission before the self.

I forget the exact wording in his autobiography but it was something like "I can't pretend I'm crazy enough to prefer being in my seat to the other two's. But I've got my own part to play."

Re: Michael Collins, Apollo 11 astronaut, has died

#153

Post by theearthisflat »

dmurray wrote: post #52
slg wrote: post #29

Collins' role in Apollo 11 is often minimized in the public conciseness, but I find it particularly fascinating from a human perspective. In certain ways it seems even scarier than Armstrong's and Aldrin's jobs. They at least had more direct control over their success in landing on the moon. Collins was largely powerless to help if something went wrong. If that did happen, he would have been faced with the choice of…

> Meanwhile no one had ever been as far from other life as he was on that flight. Xkcd has a good fact check on this: it's just about plausible that some Polynesian or Antarctic explorer, the last survivor of a doomed expedition, was the furthest from any other human. But more likely it is the CSM commanders. I note you say "other life" rather than "other humans", which would make it more clear cut in favour of Colli…

This is a very interesting discussion, but the fact that we faked the moon landing makes it all moot.

Re: Michael Collins, Apollo 11 astronaut, has died

#154

Post by lmm »

minikites wrote: post #49
TimTheTinker wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Occurrence of failures directly correlates to occurrence of growth and innovation. SpaceX is (a) innovating very fast, and therefore we see lots of failures, (b) embracing those failures as opportunities to grow, and (c) installing many sensors and collecting a lot of data to maximize the chance that they can learn a lot from whatever failures occur. Make no mistake, if a company or institution isn't trying a lot and…

Then why shouldn't we apply this same standard to government projects? Any time a government project doesn't go perfectly it's used an excuse to scrap the very concept of government since "they can't do anything right".

The US culture around government is really weird. And yes, if people gave the government permission to fail sometimes they could probably do things 10x cheaper. But that requires a level of trust that just isn't there. I don't know why, and I'm glad I live somewhere more functional.

Re: Michael Collins, Apollo 11 astronaut, has died

#155

Post by JohnBooty »

onwardly wrote: post #142
Stratoscope wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Found it! https://spaceflightblunders.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/lunar-o... From the article, I was wrong about not knowing whether the CMP was alive: "Unless there was a very serious issue with the CM’s communications systems, NASA would know of the CMP’s fate immediately. Every astronaut wears biomedical sensors at all times, as part of their constant-wear garment. This telemetry is sent to the flight surgeon." More…

Apparently you can survive about 40 seconds in a vacuum. One option would be for one pilot to enter (as quickly as possible!) then put the CMP into a spacesuit, then re-admit the other astronaut. No clue if they could enter and re-pressurize the capsule within 30 seconds- sounds like a long-shot. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627561-700-maxed-ou...

It takes about 45 minutes to don a modern spacesuit -- and that assumes the person donning the spacesuit is assisting with the process, not incapacitated.

https://www.nasa.gov/audience/foreducators/spacesuits/facts/...

Edit: This says it can actually be done in five minutes in an emergency if one's willing to skip every safety check, but getting an unresponsive person into one seems like surely it would be more of a challenge -- particularly if the "helper" was wearing a spacesuit himself. Those things are awfully restrictive! And I would wager it's not a scenario they practiced.

https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/how-do-you-put-...

Re: Michael Collins, Apollo 11 astronaut, has died

#156

Post by jhgb »

mulmen wrote: post #97
pdonis wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was no was way for him to return to solid Earth unless the lunar module came back. I'm not sure what you're basing that on. The Apollo 11 flight plan, available on the NASA website [1], shows LM jettison before TEI burn. That indicates that the LM was not needed for TEI. If for some reason the LM did not come back from the surface of the Moon, the CSM could still execute the TEI burn. [1] https://www.hq.nasa.…

The LM does return to the CSM before the burn so it is conceivable it was needed for some preparatory step before TEI. Perhaps a fuel transfer or some guidance calculations or some other maneuvers. That it was jettisoned before the burn tells us nothing about the necessity of the module up to the moment it was jettisoned.

The fact that Apollo 8 CSM flew to lunar orbit and back to Earth without any LM involvement easily defeats all your arguments.

Re: Michael Collins, Apollo 11 astronaut, has died

#157

Post by dylan604 »

banana_giraffe wrote: post #129
cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm too lazy to do the math, but what's the point-to-point distance (through the planet) of points that are 5000km along the surface?

Assuming a spherical earth, it's 4873 km.

How far is it if you assume a flat earth?

Re: Michael Collins, Apollo 11 astronaut, has died

#160

Post by _fizz_buzz_ »

yarg wrote: post #121

I feel bad for Collins, at best he got the "also participated" award in the public mindshare - and this despite that fact he was left more alone than any man in history, locked about the dark side of the moon, wondering if he was going home alone.

True, on the other hand, he was part of the most exciting missions in human history. But being on the dark side of the moon all alone must have felt really spooky.

I feel worse for the astronauts that were supposed to go on the cancelled apollo missions that must have been such a big disappointment.

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