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The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

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Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#151
post #124

I'm an avid diver; got certified as soon as I turned 12 years old and have had some great adventures and life lessons diving and continuing my training and education. After many many conversations and encounters on dive boats with others (some seasoned, most tourist / rec divers) - I believe that 90% of the industry sees diving akin to a roller coaster ride instead of Skydiving. The risks with scuba are there for you…

First class of dive course at CWRU: Older Navy diver instructor walks in "So I know each of you is coming into this class with different levels of experience. What we're going to do first is a short test on your proficiency for 20 minutes. It will be graded on completeness, not correctness. You are not expected to know all the answers. I'm just interested in gauging what you know. Be aware, there are a lot of questio…

We had a Chemistry teacher who tried a similar sort of thing on us when I was about 17.

"OK class, today's lesson is going to be a dictation, get your books out and start taking this down"

I can't remember the exact content but effectively he started off with some familiar organic chemistry and then veered off to stuff that was pretty obviously wrong.

I'm proud to say that I'm the one that said "Eh ... that doesn't seem like a valid equation ... ?"

"Good! Never just copy this stuff down without engaging your brain!"

(Or at least that's the way it goes in my memory, 17 was a long old time ago!)

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#152
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd generally trade more little injuries sliding down a shallow wall for one big injury from a free fall.

For that you have a rope, that's the objective part...you would not climb (i hope) an overhanging wall. >little injuries sliding down a shallow wall Those are often not "little" the rocks rip you apart, and when you stop you look not human anymore (a bag of flesh)...happens often at glaciers too.

Oh, but in the alps there are ways with a metal ladder, where you indeed "walk" a overhanging way, without rope.

Not for everyone obviously.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#153
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's obviously our fault for not being safe but we definitely didn't have the necessary fear in us for our skill level. I think fear is what has kept me safe this long. I've got at least 100 dives under my belt but I was quite careful to slowly ramp up the difficulty, and even now, I'm very cautious of really strong currents. I must have done over 20 easy shore dives just getting navigation experience (and I'm still…

> I was quite careful to slowly ramp up the difficulty, and even now, I'm very cautious of really strong currents. This is most definitely how it should go. It seems like an inevitability you will eventually have something go wrong (maybe you lose your group, your mask is a problem, you burn through air too quickly, etc). In this scenario the most important skill is to not panic and control your breathing but I think…

I was sixteen when I first started diving. It was only after I first (briefly) lost track of the dive group, at night, that I realized I had absolutely no plan for what to do if I was disconnected from the guide. (At night.) This possibility hadn’t been discussed, at all.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#154

I'm an avid diver; got certified as soon as I turned 12 years old and have had some great adventures and life lessons diving and continuing my training and education. After many many conversations and encounters on dive boats with others (some seasoned, most tourist / rec divers) - I believe that 90% of the industry sees diving akin to a roller coaster ride instead of Skydiving. The risks with scuba are there for you…

I have a similar theory about motorcycles. It's not batteries included, and some people ride like absolute madmen increasing the fatality rate.

It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. It's the old guys, riding back from "biker nights" at the bar, in full branded gear to include the do-rag and t-shirt. Lots of single rider, single bike accident with substantial alcohol in the blood.

I've ridden for many years, and I also fly small planes, so I'm quite aware of my higher-than-average risk profile, and have gone through a lot of studies and reading to determine how I can, as much as possible, mitigate the risks while still enjoying the activities.

For motorcycles, riding regularly, in full gear, while sober, gains you an awful lot. Riding infrequently is hard because you don't maintain the muscle memory, full gear turns most crashes into a "Invent new cusswords to remove the paint from your helmet, get up, and walk away" event (not all, obviously, but if you crash without gear, it's going to either suck a lot or end your life, and if you crash in gear it's a lot less likely to suck or kill you), and "bike nights at the bar" are just dumb.

Knowing the limits of your bike is also helpful. I did a few track days, decided I didn't want to go down this route, but very much appreciated the chance to learn (in a safe environment) how much further than my normal limits I could ride on the bike. I couldn't ride anywhere near the limits of my bike, and knew it, but I expanded the envelope of "I know I can make this bike do that," and it was occasionally useful. The guys riding wheelies down the highway, against what most people believe, actually don't kill themselves terribly often. They know the limits of their bike, they know what they can make it do, and if there's something that requires a rapid response, they can make the bike do it on demand. One of those guys has a car pull out in front of them, they're either able to stop competently, or aim for the new gap, lean the bike over, cut through the gap, and flip off the car. The guy who rides a big cruiser 300 miles a year to the bar is more likely to mentally lock up, lock the brakes (before antilocks were standard), and slam into the side of said vehicle. Often while sliding on the ground first, having locked the rear tire.

You also, if you're riding regularly, learn in a hurry how to identify the cars to watch out for. Maybe the slammed Honda with a fart can, park bench, and body damage is being driven by someone's mom, who is the most respectful person on the road. Don't care, I'm going to assume it's likely to do something very abrupt and stupid. And, often enough, they do.

But if you wear gear, ride a lot, and understand the limits of your bike, you can manage a lot of riding miles, very safely. As much as people make fun of the old couples on Goldwings in the glow-stick yellow riding gear, a lot of those people ride 30k+ miles/yr, for many, many years, entirely safely.

This is getting long, but general aviation accident records contain a lot of the same sort of thing - "Here's a short list of quick ways to die in an airplane. Don't do these and your life expectancy will increase dramatically."

And nothing here means that you can control all the risk. Sometimes, shit happens and there's nothing you can do about it, despite all your preparations (Gann's Fate is the Hunter is a great read on the subject). But you can radically balance the scales in your direction with the right planning.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#155
post #124

I'm an avid diver; got certified as soon as I turned 12 years old and have had some great adventures and life lessons diving and continuing my training and education. After many many conversations and encounters on dive boats with others (some seasoned, most tourist / rec divers) - I believe that 90% of the industry sees diving akin to a roller coaster ride instead of Skydiving. The risks with scuba are there for you…

First class of dive course at CWRU: Older Navy diver instructor walks in "So I know each of you is coming into this class with different levels of experience. What we're going to do first is a short test on your proficiency for 20 minutes. It will be graded on completeness, not correctness. You are not expected to know all the answers. I'm just interested in gauging what you know. Be aware, there are a lot of questio…

We had a similar one of those in school. The first question of the test was 'read all questions before you start.' Then it had stuff like poke holes in the paper, draw things, random stuff, the very last question though was,

'Now that you've read all the questions, just write your name in the top corner and turn your paper over.'

Yeah...a lot of my classmates ended up with holes and scribbles on their tests...

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#156
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a similar theory about motorcycles. It's not batteries included, and some people ride like absolute madmen increasing the fatality rate.

It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. It's the old guys, riding back from "biker nights" at the bar, in full branded gear to include the do-rag and t-shirt. Lots of single rider, single bike accident with substantial alcohol in the blood. I've ridden for many years, and I also fly small planes, so I'm quite aware of my higher-than-average risk p…

The median age of riders is ~50 while the average age of fatalities is 42. People over 50 make up significantly less than half of fatalities.

However, you are still kind of correct- the number of fatalities picks up strongly at 50+. People 35-45 tend to be the safest. People 50+ are still on average significantly safer than Motorcycle fatalities are heavily associated with risk-taking more than anything else. There are more people like that Data from NHTSA summaries

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#157

I'm an avid diver; got certified as soon as I turned 12 years old and have had some great adventures and life lessons diving and continuing my training and education. After many many conversations and encounters on dive boats with others (some seasoned, most tourist / rec divers) - I believe that 90% of the industry sees diving akin to a roller coaster ride instead of Skydiving. The risks with scuba are there for you…

“not even go through the most basic safety checks prior to diving” From my experience the dive operators in tourist spots often don’t want you to touch anything. Kind of makes sense because most tourists like myself only have a very vague recollection of the procedure.

How many of those tourists will die as a result of this? The data seems to suggest it’s vanishingly small.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#158
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of resorts and other destinations offer resort and discovery diving. You do need be 10 years old, but no prior experience needed, after some basics some places let you do 1-2 open water dives in the same day! All equip is provided. You really DO NOT configure any of your stuff on these dives (you do get comfortable breathing underwater). It's a scuba dive "experience". Unless you are a diver please don't comme…

What instructors and dive-masters actually do (or should / are trained to do) for those dives is hold onto the first stage regulator at the top of the tank for the entire duration of the dive and never pass 12 meters. The diver never even needs to worry about buoyancy. We use to call them Lipton (tea) dives, because it was just dipping tourists into the water ;) They are absolutely 100% safe when done according to th…

12 meters would have been "deep" where I was :)

I called them "disco" dives. Dive down a bit, show them some lights and some fish turn around a few times and back up. A play on the discovery label.

But yeah, the grumpy "master" divers will be yelling at you from shore about the whole thing!

Def want 100% contact from start to finish, and if you keep dive to 8-10 meters or less (hard bottom) helps. Just throw some statues / structures down there to look at.

Things to watch for. Folks who can't equalize - just come up or do a super shallow route if you can. And def need to make sure folks can breathe comfortably underwater (shallow water / cow pen). Also doesn't need to be long, it's about the experience. Some idiots take advantage of the depth to extend time which is silly.

Another labor was resort dive, but wasn't sure what differences / similarities were between all these experiences.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#159
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a similar theory about motorcycles. It's not batteries included, and some people ride like absolute madmen increasing the fatality rate.

It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. It's the old guys, riding back from "biker nights" at the bar, in full branded gear to include the do-rag and t-shirt. Lots of single rider, single bike accident with substantial alcohol in the blood. I've ridden for many years, and I also fly small planes, so I'm quite aware of my higher-than-average risk p…

> It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates.

There are a couple of high risk groups. One is young guys with a combination of inexperience and a desire to go fast(er than conditions/skills allow). Another is older guys, often who haven't ridden for years if ever, who get into trouble. Again inexperience is a big factor in both.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really have only a vague recollection of basic safety checks you shouldn't be diving - seriously.

Plenty of resorts and other destinations offer resort and discovery diving. You do need be 10 years old, but no prior experience needed, after some basics some places let you do 1-2 open water dives in the same day! All equip is provided. You really DO NOT configure any of your stuff on these dives (you do get comfortable breathing underwater). It's a scuba dive "experience". Unless you are a diver please don't comme…

Resort Diving is mostly safe, the dive profile helps keep you safe. At 30ft, a lot less can go wrong. You can easily survive a rapid ascent from 30ft, heck you likely don't need to actively blow bubbles unless you took a huge breath or are ascending super fast. OP who hasn't dove in a while shouldn't make their first dive on vacation a 120ft bottom. They will likely not remember how to breath, how to swim and will consume too much air and blow the dive for everyone. I refuse to dive with strangers on dive boats, I have never once had a dive buddy physically verify my secondary and some of them get weird when I ask them to verify their primary and secondary with me. The 'I know' eye rolls when i show them where my weight release is, where things are on my BC. Honestly thats what pushed me in to technical diving, everyone takes it serious. If we do our math wrong and the drop tanks aren't sufficient or if the trimix was off we were all dead. When we did cave dives, knowing each exit, knowing the routes we were going to navigate. Rehearsing the transitions between lines. Even with the best planning, things go wrong. Read up on the Diepolder II and III caves - scary stuff
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