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Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

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Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#151
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you will never spend it. What gives currencies relative stability is central banks. It will never become a global reserve currency for the same reason gold is no longer a basis for money. It is better to inflate your way out of problems (print money to bail out key institutions) than to deflate your way out of them (great depression). Better is defined as causing less harm to individuals.

> Better is defined as causing less harm to individuals Inflation sucks for more people than deflation. It causes social strife, environmental destruction through overconsumption, a widening gap between the rich and the poor, more expensive healthcare for lower classes, stress and the need to live on the corporate treadmill, a general inability to identify worthwhile investments versus ponzi schemes because TINA, pus…

You're confusing the economic effects of inflation and deflation with environments of low and high real interest rates.

I'd counter by saying that the strongest decades of median real wage growth and general GDP growth were during the high inflation 1960s and 1970s.

I'd argue that the fact nobody was starving at the beginning of the great depression means that the economic mess didn't cause the starvation is a bit of a straw man. Of course, at the beginning, people don't immediately find themselves in destitution, they draw down savings. The destitution begins when the economic disruption becomes prolonged.

I can't find any primary sources on the government policy of destroying food, but I'd conjecture the reason it was done (if it happened) was to support nominal food prices and therefore the apparent credit-worthiness of farms in a highly deflationary environment. Of course, the real problem was that there was insufficient aggregate demand to support the nominal food price, i.e. deflation combined with wage-price downward stickiness caused the market to fail to clear.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are not fungable and bitcoin is Bitcoin is not fungible. Bitcoins can be distinguished by their transaction history. Governments are blacklisting addresses and all bitcoins that have passed through them are now tainted. Exchanges already reject deposits containing coins tainted by association with blacklisted individuals or even coin mixing services.

Blacklisting doesn’t change fungibility. It just means some exchanges are refusing to do business with people who believe in privacy. A government can scream and shout but they cannot block a bitcoin transaction.

> A government can scream and shout but they cannot block a bitcoin transaction.

Blacklisting bitcoins gained from mined blocks containing blacklisted addresses would easily do that.

Probably processing transactions from those addresses already is illegal with current laws. Why should you be able to earn transaction fees from that?

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#154
> Roughly speaking, though, money is an accounting mechanism for keeping track of debt, with its value ultimately backed up by a central government's willingness to accept it for tax payments.

This doesn’t make sense. Debt is money owed. So if money is “an accounting mechanism for keeping track of debt” then we have a circular definition.

Money can be completely separated from debt. And until around a hundred years ago — where gold was and had been money for hundreds of years — it was. A silver or gold coin is not anyone’s debt, yet it was used as money for centuries.

An excellent critique of the idea that money is created by governments was written by Carl Menger in his essay from 1892 entitled “On the Origin of Money”: https://is.muni.cz/el/1456/podzim2009/MPE_MOEK/um/8972262/me...

Menger defines money as, simply, “the most liquid good” — where liquidity i, essentially, defined as “how much value you lose when you exchange to and from a certain good”. For example, if you have a hundred chickens and you sell them in exchange for wheat, after which you immediately buy back chickens with your wheat, you will lose more value (chickens) than if you were to use gold as an intermediate commodity. This gives rise to a “common” intermediate commodity, because everyone wants to lose as little value as possible when selling/buying, and this intermediate commodity is money.

Of course, this has changed by now, since each country now issues their own currency and disincentivizes the use of competing monies/currencies through various means (primarily by defining their own currency as the “one true measure of value” by charging capital gains taxes on competing monies).

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#155
post #52
post #7

The funny thing is that Bitcoin will basically only have value as a collectible as long as substantial numbers of people believe this essay’s argument is false . People want to collect bitcoin at current valuations because they are convinced it will become a currency/store of value of the future and hence rise in value. If everyone suddenly switched to believing “Oh bitcoin doesn’t do anything but it is a fun collect…

Here's a question: how many people do you know that buy crypto intend to spend it? You know, use it like currency? Or are they all just HODLing in the hopes that some other buyer will come along who believes it will become a medium of exchange? In my view, it's not a currency until people stop speculating and start using it like a currency. So yes, it's a collectible with ridiculously high transaction costs that make…

Spending Bitcoin & Crypto is incredible easy in Switzerland. Our main Amazon alternative as well as the biggest food delivery network both accept crypto. You can even pay your taxes in some places.

I know only few people who own crypto as pure speculation. Most are using too (at least from time to time)

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also Monero which is everything Bitcoin was supposed to be and much more. Why bother trying to fix bitcoin when a solution already exists? There's absolutely no need for this layer 2 stuff.

> There's absolutely no need for this layer 2 stuff If XMR usage got big enough it would very much need layer 2 even more, the developers themselves acknowledge this and are upfront about it. These very basic computing problems that have been repeated ad nauseam for a decade now do not magically go away and are actually a lot worse for monero due to ring transactions being much heavier. Are you really going to store…

> worse for monero due to ring transactions being much heavier.

As well as all the rangeproofs that further bloat the chain size. Other confidential blockchain designs allow the removal of rangeproofs for all spent outputs (ie the vast majority).

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also Monero which is everything Bitcoin was supposed to be and much more. Why bother trying to fix bitcoin when a solution already exists? There's absolutely no need for this layer 2 stuff.

There are thousands of other cryptocurrencies that claim to have better tech than Bitcoin in terms of privacy, speed or fees. This is the case of having a better technology doesn't matter, Bitcoin came at a very lucky time and also grew organically for many years and had arguably the fairest coin distributions (most coins nowadays are shilled very heavily by it's developers and investors). It's also the most secure a…

Bitcoin: Market Cap: Fr 926,647,481,214 Volume: Fr 54,697,251,981

Ethereum: Market Cap: Fr 261,435,750,490 Volume: Fr 39,931,852,584

Its not like Bitcoin is standing up there alone. Sure still far stronger, but the times where its only bitcoin and the others is likely over.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#158
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a question: how many people do you know that buy crypto intend to spend it? You know, use it like currency? Or are they all just HODLing in the hopes that some other buyer will come along who believes it will become a medium of exchange? In my view, it's not a currency until people stop speculating and start using it like a currency. So yes, it's a collectible with ridiculously high transaction costs that make…

It has value as a currency on dark markets and possibly for companies paying hackers off to disable ransomware. I can't really think of why people would use it instead of fiat for something like a Tesla though.

Fees? People whine about high Bitcoin fees, but with your Tesla example what are those $15 Bitcoin fees against a 3% fee from a credit card provider?

Moving money in higher amounts can get expensive as fuck.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#159
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would pay and get paid using monero. It's everything bitcoin was supposed to be.

> I would pay and get paid using monero If you agreed to work for a company for X monero a month, and the value of monero (relative to USD or your local currency) dropped by 90% a few months later, would you continue to work at the originally agreed upon rate? And on the opposite end, if a coffee shop sold lattes for Y monero, would you be okay with continuing to pay Y if monero shot up by 1000%?

Just because you get paid in crypto does not mean you do not hold the money in FIAT. Whatever people think about USDT or other stable coins, its easy to move your crypto worth into USD and back.

What you could do against the fact that the USD is heavily losing on value is a different topic tho.

On the same note: You are likely getting paid in $. Your currency lost about 4% in value against the CHF in the last months. Is this something you worry about? I guess not.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If everyone suddenly switched to believing “Oh bitcoin doesn’t do anything but it is a fun collectible which also has mining costs to track ownership” its value would plummet. That's generally true for all currencies. If everyone suddenly switched to believing "X-sovereign-currency" doesn't do anything but legitimizes that sovereign and has military and human rights costs to maintain the illusion of that legitimacy…

> their value is in your head, or at the tip of the gun, or because you can pay taxes in it or get sent to jail. These all seem very real. And not something that will disappear (or even drop) if media attention or nerd interest moves elsewhere.

To be fair i trust a decentralized monster where millions of people have millions of their money in more than most governments.
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