Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors • Hacker News Board

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#151

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Apr 20, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #146

lotsofpulp wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are obvious tradeoffs involved, but I really never see this aspect considered in public debate. It was a big aspect in 2009/2010 when ACA was being passed. The reason people want insurance tied to employment is because they benefit from lower premiums because their risk pool experiences less healthcare costs than the general public. If everyone was dumped into one marketplace and risk pool, then the insurance…

Why continue to allow the existence of these various parasitic middlemen health insurance companies with their redundant bureaucracies and the N x N billing problems, networks, etc. they introduce?

Because there are insufficient votes in Congress to change it. Even the current implementation of various managed care organizations and mandatory coverage with limits on premiums and out of pocket maximums BARELY passed.

And it was gutted pretty quickly when the most important part of it, mandatory purchasing of insurance (I.e. a tax), was repealed in 2017.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#152

Post by username90 » Tue, Apr 20, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

enragedcacti wrote: post #144

cloche wrote: post #26

I know someone who works as a contractor for Google (not through Modis). It's quite odd. They had to go through a lot of Google specified training, they only work for Google, their manager is someone from Google, the computer was supplied from Google, they're doing work that is directed by Google, they receive performance feedback from Google. But at the day, they're officially employed by this vendor company. I just…

There are laws against providing different tiers for some benefits (I'm pretty certain healthcare is one). So if Google were to hire them, it has to decide if its worth lowering the standard of healthcare for their six-figure engineers or giving these datacenter employees a really expensive healthcare plan.

I didn't know that, why do USA try to make companies take the role of a government, except that they can fire you?

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#153

Post by switch007 » Tue, Apr 20, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

adav wrote: post #98

jasode wrote: post #13

>Contractors love the good pay and engaging work in Google's data centers. They resent that Google and its staffing firm, Modis Engineering, make them quit every two years. >[...] But those two-year contracts are written in stone. Workers like Wait are not usually allowed to apply either to renew their contracts or to do the same job as a Google employee. If they want to keep working in the same job, they have to lea…

Very similar to the introduction of IR35 legislation in the UK.

And recent clamping down no?

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#154

Post by lowercased » Tue, Apr 20, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #109

cool_dude85 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if Google can afford to do it (they can) then it's perfectly practical. They just don't want to, and you're right that the reason is obvious.

So when you go to find a Plumber, Auto Mechanic, Roofer, etc you look at the amount of money you can "afford" than pay exactly that? so If a plumber says he can fix my sink for $150 but I cna "afford" to pay $500 I should pay $500?

Are you also actively working with other people/companies who might hire those same people to put caps on what they might get paid, or indeed to negotiate hiring them at all? Google/apple/etc have enormous sway in some areas re: hiring/referrals/etc, and engaged in 'antipoaching' stuff that prevented free movement of labor (imo).

The plumber/mechanic analogies fall down when you look at the size and actions of google in the marketplace as a whole, not just with the specific interactions of an individual contractor/employee.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#155

Post by 908B64B197 » Tue, Apr 20, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

coryking wrote: post #128

ahelwer wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mostly right, although the way I see it is this: there are a few subclasses of independent contractor. At the top are people with high hourly rates who have niche skillsets and want to work on their own with minimal involvement in the company with which they have a contract. In the middle are the perma-temps involved in the Microsoft lawsuit or at H-1B shops, usually fairly well-paid but lacking many benefits…

> health insurance and how it's tied to employment Without getting too political, I really feel like untying health insurance from employment would transform the labor market and encourage far more entrepreneurial endeavors. People could take more risks if they didn't have to worry about losing healthcare coverage. There are obvious tradeoffs involved, but I really never see this aspect considered in public debate. M…

That's one of the reasons a lot of businesses in tech are founded while still in school: You get to keep your (low premium) coverage.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#156

Post by hintymad » Tue, Apr 20, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #13

>Contractors love the good pay and engaging work in Google's data centers. They resent that Google and its staffing firm, Modis Engineering, make them quit every two years. >[...] But those two-year contracts are written in stone. Workers like Wait are not usually allowed to apply either to renew their contracts or to do the same job as a Google employee. If they want to keep working in the same job, they have to lea…

I remember a contractor sued a startup for which I worked for treating him as a permanent employee yet didn't give her the same benefits, for the startup gave her the same laptop and the same office environment. She won the suit. Consequently, contractors from then on got crappy equipments and office environment from then on.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#157

Post by nataz » Tue, Apr 20, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

coryking wrote: post #126

jasode wrote: post #13

>Contractors love the good pay and engaging work in Google's data centers. They resent that Google and its staffing firm, Modis Engineering, make them quit every two years. >[...] But those two-year contracts are written in stone. Workers like Wait are not usually allowed to apply either to renew their contracts or to do the same job as a Google employee. If they want to keep working in the same job, they have to lea…

In my time at MSFT there was at least one staffing firm that was founded by a couple contractors who decided to just fuck it and make their own LLC so they didn't have to "pay the pimp" as some put it. If you went through them, you could do so as a 1099. Given their "fuck it" roots, I'm not actually sure how much of a shield they provided between you and Microsoft's Accounts Payable. I bet they paid you every week li…

Oh man, the industry expectation of delayed payment was my largest headache as an independent contractor.

When I was first starting out, and still struggling to get a good stable of clients, delayed payment was often something I let slide in negotiations. Better to secure a 100k contract w/ payment 3-6(!) months out than risk losing out to another shop.

Even though I was bringing in a lot of income, cash flow was a constant struggle. It took a long time to build up enough billable work to smooth out income curve over time.

The worst of it was when I was just transitioning from a single man shop to bringing on additional help. Conversion from independent 1099 to having your own subs, or worse, trying to carry people on overhead is hard. As the owner, you've bought into the idea of lean times, and variable income, but staff expect to be paid every week. Gogo credit cards as short term emergency bridge loans.

Ahh, the fun of being a small business owner.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#158

Post by Goronmon » Tue, Apr 20, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #101

RHSeeger wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Forcing freelancers into W-2 status is just another example of the government screwing people over "for their own good". It's the government screwing _some_ people over for the good of everyone else, where it's presumed that "good of everyone else" is worth more to society than what is lost by those that get screwed over by it. At least, that's generally the intent.

Ahh the old "Greater Good", the most evil phrase in the English Language Anyone attempting to do anything for "the greater good" should be viewed with suspicion and disrespect as most at best what they are attempting to do no matter the intent will fail and harm more people than it will help At worst is it just a shield to cover their immoral actions, or thirst for power Every person that values freedom, individualit…

Every person that values freedom, individuality, and prosperity should reject any policy or law that is based on a "greater good" narrative

So pretty much all laws and policies? Anarchy doesn't seem that sustainable.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#159

Post by meanwhile7 » Tue, Apr 20, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #13

>Contractors love the good pay and engaging work in Google's data centers. They resent that Google and its staffing firm, Modis Engineering, make them quit every two years. >[...] But those two-year contracts are written in stone. Workers like Wait are not usually allowed to apply either to renew their contracts or to do the same job as a Google employee. If they want to keep working in the same job, they have to lea…

The skimming is awful. I didn't realize that company was skimming double my pay.

I'd have my house paid off if not for that layer.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#160

Post by 0xEFF » Tue, Apr 20, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #130

throwaways885 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every person that values freedom, individuality, and prosperity should reject any policy or law that is based on a "greater good" narrative Curious what you think about COVID lockdowns then

Should be very clear, I oppose government mandated lock downs.

Seems selfish. Lockdowns reduce deaths.

Edit: I don’t mean to call anyone names, genuinely interested in understanding if you’re concerned about being perceived as selfish and if so how you reconcile the tension?