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Java Is Underhyped

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Re: Java Is Underhyped

#151

Post by BiteCode_dev »

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #138
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

It's horses for courses. Some plus points for Java: - you can integrate code from hundreds of developers fairly safely (knowing that no one has changed the default behaviour fo builtins and different dependencies won't clash). - the syntax, although not the most succinct is fairly easily readable and maintainable by other developers.

It's also True for Go, Rust, Haskell, etc.

But even for Python (which syntactically speaking is probably the easiest to read of all the list), if your team scale, you just scale the tooling with it.

The Python ecosystem is very rich in tooling for enforcing best practices. Poetry will manage dependencies cleanly. pylint will let you check that builtins are not overriden. Mypy will check for types.

So of course, it's not as good as Java, but again, the post is about compromises the language make, which are not the proper ones for me, personally.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#152

Post by pron »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

You say Java is not X enough to compete and then list things that Java has successfully competed with for years and continues to have a very wide lead over now, with the exception of Python and JS in limited circumstances -- the browser and machine learning.

The reason Java does compete so successfully is that it is high level and yet provides a virtually unmatched combination of performance, maintainability and observability (including always on, low-overhead deep profiling). None of the alternatives you mentioned come close. This is why it continues to be a top choice at Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Google, Alibaba, Uber, Soundclous, and almost all Fortune 500 companies. Saying it is "out of the loop" is either wishful thinking or delusional, depending on your perspective. It's just not the reality.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#153

Post by adrianN »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #126
Nursie wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python is generally less performant. Go has a smaller ecosystem. IMHO, YMMV etc.

Yes, but that's my point. If I don't need performance, Python is ok. If I do, I won't go Java, I will choose something that is built for performance. Python is good enough for 99% of my performances need. The last 1%, jumping to java is not a big difference, I'll use rust or go. I won't use go for the ecosystem, but it's unique characteristics: easy concurrency, dead simple binary production. Java can't beat that. IF…

Java is orders of magnitude faster than Python for code that doesn't spend all of its time waiting for IO. Java perf and Go perf are about the same.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#154

Post by systemvoltage »

Jaxkr wrote: post #73
dcchambers wrote: post #35

I do think Java has a bad rep as a "dry, corporate, enterprise" language, but I think there is an ecosystem around Java that is pretty awesome and you can build incredible applications with Java if you want to. Java has a branding problem. Java (and Oracle) missed the wave of the last 15 years when tech became "cool." If you were new to tech/programming and wanted to pick up a language, which of these three would you…

I actually laughed out loud at the Java.com homepage. I was so surprised, I expected a sleek, modern homepage but instead I got a portal to 2010.

To be fair, lots of websites were far better in 2010 than today’s white space filled, massive typography, bright colored potpourri of rounded corners, scroll jacked bullshit. Full screen, infinite scroll, hamburger menus. So many awful contemporary design choices.

Don’t pool it all together with this Java website - which sucks but not because it was from 2010.

I abhor and loathe modern web design.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#155

Post by sto_hristo »

hurril wrote: post #135
sto_hristo wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

curl -OL tar -xzvf So complicated.

All your projects are belong to that one version of the JDK. Great success.

No success is greater than 100 different projects needing 100 different JDKs on the same machine. But somehow i don't have a problem building an android app in its own java, while the backing service is done in a completely different jdk. It's not ideal as i would want the latest language features in the android side, but that is an android problem.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#156

Post by BiteCode_dev »

_pmf_ wrote: post #149
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but that's my point. If I don't need performance, Python is ok. If I do, I won't go Java, I will choose something that is built for performance. Python is good enough for 99% of my performances need. The last 1%, jumping to java is not a big difference, I'll use rust or go. I won't use go for the ecosystem, but it's unique characteristics: easy concurrency, dead simple binary production. Java can't beat that. IF…

> The last 1%, jumping to java is not a big difference That's where you're wrong, kiddo.

Oh, I'm afraid I can't claim that sobriquet anymore unfortunately.

But that's not the point. The point is that, for the 99%, staying on a slower language is ok. For the last 1%, I'll skip Java and go to Rust/Go. If I have to do a rewrite for perf sake, I'm not going to go half way.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#157

Post by donatj »

scaladev wrote: post #142
donatj wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the people who say that Minecraft should have been written in C++ […] there's Bedrock Edition. Nobody I know cares about it enough to play it. Been playing for just under ten years, everyone I know plays Bedrock these days. I built and manage a very popular tool / Minecraft community and while I don’t have actual numbers, my general sense is the majority of players run either console or mobile Minecraft - all o…

>I don’t know why you wouldn’t run Bedrock Because not everybody runs Windows? I don't consider mobile and console platforms as gaming, but that's just my biases.

I actually personally run the Bedrock Android version on my Mac with a launcher. It’s a little temperamental but still preferable to Java Edition in my eyes. I mostly play on Windows and Xbox however.

- https://mcpelauncher.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ - it’s out of date but they link a fork that works.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#158

Post by BiteCode_dev »

pron wrote: post #152
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

You say Java is not X enough to compete and then list things that Java has successfully competed with for years and continues to have a very wide lead over now , with the exception of Python and JS in limited circumstances -- the browser and machine learning. The reason Java does compete so successfully is that it is high level and yet provides a virtually unmatched combination of performance, maintainability and obs…

I'm just exposing my own selection criteria. It's not an absolute metrics.

I'm just saying, "to me, that's why I never end up using java".

Java is good enough for the vast majority of things. But so is Python.

And for specialized things, there are better choices available to me.

I'm not a Fortune 500 though.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#159

Post by Brian_K_White »

Koiwai wrote: post #43
offtop5 wrote: post #3

Java is under hyped in the same way Toyota Corollas are under hyped. Nothing is exciting about it since it's so common. I personally dislike Java since I just find it hard , you'll never want for work as a skilled Java developer

That's a great analogy, but I'm a bit confused about the later part, is it "you'll never be wanted for work as ..." or "you'll never want to work as ..."?

"You'll never want for X" means you'll never need X, you'll always have all of the X you could want.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#160

Post by sarsway »

christkv wrote: post #134
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

Kotlin solves most of the problems for us while leveraging the benefits of the JVM.

What's the state of server-side Kotlin now, is it usable and what kind of JVM are cloud hosts running it on? Kotlin seems like one of the best languages out there.
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