US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine • Hacker News Board

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#151

Post by ars » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

ChadHomenim wrote: post #138

Hormonal birth control boasts clot rates of 1 per 10k, yet we hand that out like candy to little girls. Yet this is considered "too dangerous..." Edit: mods locked my account for this, lol. Some of the idiots replying are purposely conflating progestogen stats with non-progestogen stats, which is dishonest at best and willfully evil at worst. 2/3 of the market causing clots is fine? What a braindead take. I expected…

No, it's not "too dangerous", rather it's "we did not warn people about the known risks".

If you warn people about the small risk of blood clots from the vaccine, then you can let them decide if to receive it.

That's what informed consent is all about.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#152

Post by ChadHomenim » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #144

ChadHomenim wrote: post #138

Hormonal birth control boasts clot rates of 1 per 10k, yet we hand that out like candy to little girls. Yet this is considered "too dangerous..." Edit: mods locked my account for this, lol. Some of the idiots replying are purposely conflating progestogen stats with non-progestogen stats, which is dishonest at best and willfully evil at worst. 2/3 of the market causing clots is fine? What a braindead take. I expected…

> yet we hand that out like candy to little girls. Do we? What a silly post. And if there were an alternative that was 1 in a billion I'm sure that would be paused, too.

Yes, we do, and a cursory Google search will confirm this. Stop spreading disinformation and FUD.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#153

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #123

I'm trying to understand why this isn't ridiculous, and I'm not sure what that reason could be. The disease left to its own accord has the potential to kill millions (someone please correct me on this). Why would we pause a vaccine because 6 people in 7 million got blood clots? Why would we do that and risk fueling anti-vaccine viewpoints? I'm baffled, but perhaps I'm a fool.

> Why would we pause a vaccine because 6 people in 7 million got blood clots?

Because J&J isn’t the only vaccine in the inventory, and the others don’t have that problem (or, IIRC, the same level of other adverse reactions), and because:

> Why would we do that and risk fueling anti-vaccine viewpoints?

What risks fueling anti-vaccine viewpoints is ignoring adverse impacts which are known and plowing forward, especially giveb that people often don’t have a choice of which vaccine they are administered.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#154

Post by randomfool » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

_ea1k wrote: post #132

ravenstine wrote: post #123

I'm trying to understand why this isn't ridiculous, and I'm not sure what that reason could be. The disease left to its own accord has the potential to kill millions (someone please correct me on this). Why would we pause a vaccine because 6 people in 7 million got blood clots? Why would we do that and risk fueling anti-vaccine viewpoints? I'm baffled, but perhaps I'm a fool.

Yes, but the risk is death and there are alternatives that do not appear to have this risk. Why not pause until it is more well understood? In the US, the other vaccines are starting to become really readily available.

All of these vaccines are approved under emergency authorization- the long-term effects are still unknown. At this same rate (6 in 6 million+), there could easily be unnoticed issues lurking in the alternatives as well.

What we do know is that the alternative to not being vaccinated is much worse.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#155

Post by xwdv » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #150

I love how people are complaining about this decision without addressing the fact that there are two other vaccines that don't have this issue that have been used orders of magnitude more. Why wouldn't you pause J&J? It's just a drop in the bucket in total vaccinations anyway and the other two don't have this issue.

J&J was the best option for those who didn't want to dabble in experimental vaccine tech. Now there is no choice.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#156

Post by endisneigh » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

ChadHomenim wrote: post #152

endisneigh wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yet we hand that out like candy to little girls. Do we? What a silly post. And if there were an alternative that was 1 in a billion I'm sure that would be paused, too.

Yes, we do, and a cursory Google search will confirm this. Stop spreading disinformation and FUD.

Please then, post your source and post the alternative that doesn't have the issue (orders of magnitude more).

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#157

Post by bentlegen » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #129

Makes sense. Given there are some organizations that are forcing you to get a vaccination. 1 in a million chance of dying from something you were forced to do is different than 1 in a million chance of a pseudo-random event. Makes no sense to continue with J&J given the other two don't have this issue at the moment. Of course, the utilitarian approach is to simply continue vaccinating with J&J since surely more peopl…

As of today about 560,000 people in the US have died of COVID, or roughly 1 in 574. I think it’s safe to say the odds are higher than “1 in a million”.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#158

Post by cheph » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

majewsky wrote: post #76

cheph wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know that there are no side effects that are common enough to be of real concern How did they establish that there are no long term side effects?

Not a doctor, but from what I've heard from immunologists, vaccines in general are incredibly unlikely to have long-term side effects on the scales that you think about. When an immunologist talks about "long-term side effects" of a vaccination, they're usually considering time ranges on the order of 6-8 weeks. Meanwhile, the 10000s of patients from the big Phase 3 trials have been vaccinated for 6-9 months, so the u…

> Not a doctor, but from what I've heard from immunologists, vaccines in general are incredibly unlikely to have long-term side effects on the scales that you think about.

Fair enough, but the comment I responded to said: "We know that there are no side effects that are common enough to be of real concern."

Given this statement is not qualified for timescale, I want to know what the basis for it is.

How does the person who made it know there are no side effects on the order of six months or a year that are common enough to be a concern?

Look I am all happy chappy with the vaccine, I will inject that sweet MRNA Pfizer or Moderna vaccines as soon as someone lets me at it, but I still think we need to avoid what Fauci does, which is knowingly lie in order to get people to do what we want them to do.

There is blood clotting risk from AZ? Great, tell me what the risk is and I can deal with it, but lie to me and we are done talking.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#159

Post by endisneigh » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

bentlegen wrote: post #157

endisneigh wrote: post #129

Makes sense. Given there are some organizations that are forcing you to get a vaccination. 1 in a million chance of dying from something you were forced to do is different than 1 in a million chance of a pseudo-random event. Makes no sense to continue with J&J given the other two don't have this issue at the moment. Of course, the utilitarian approach is to simply continue vaccinating with J&J since surely more peopl…

As of today about 560,000 people in the US have died of COVID, or roughly 1 in 574. I think it’s safe to say the odds are higher than “1 in a million”.

My point isn't to say that 1 in a million die of COVID, my point is that psychologically the decision makes sense.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#160

Post by ChadHomenim » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #156

ChadHomenim wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we do, and a cursory Google search will confirm this. Stop spreading disinformation and FUD.

Please then, post your source and post the alternative that doesn't have the issue (orders of magnitude more).

"Citation needed" is a lazy way to throw FUD at an argument; if someone who didn't even leave the comment you are responding to can spend 30 seconds to find the citation on Google to answer your question, you could have done so yourself instead of demanding other people cite every single thing they say lest they aren't believed.