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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#151

Having the Church community while growing up was great. But the fact that admission to this community required total philosophical adherence is just bizarre. Frankly, growing up in the church left me with a broken moral code. It was only once I left it in my teens and had to work things out for myself that I feel like I could properly ground myself ethically. Having a moral system imposed on you can do that.

> Having the Church community while growing up was great. But the fact that admission to this community required total philosophical adherence is just bizarre.

If you're not talking about the capital "C" church (which I interpret as the Catholic Church), then, it doesn't, really. You can be a Unitarian Universalist and believe in just about anything you want. Their entire philosophy is almost literally "be excellent to each other."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism#Belief,...

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#152

As a believer and someone who attends church regularly, this is sad but not unexpected. From my own personal experience - if the church cannot answer questions clearly, their members will look for answers somewhere else. A lot of churches unfortunately are so elementary in their teaching or turn to "feel good preaching" (see Elevation Church). The longterm effect is that a person ends up being tired of getting the sa…

As someone who was raised in a religious home who no longer attends any church I think it's less to do with not answering questions and more to do with a hostile rejection of religion generally. It wasn't until I had children of my own that I realized I needed to distance myself from religion. I know there is a large variety of what is taught from religion to religion and sect to sect but I'd like to steer clear from any organization that takes a negative view on basic things like homosexuality. I cannot fathom exposing my (or any) kids to that kind of worldview.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#153

Having the Church community while growing up was great. But the fact that admission to this community required total philosophical adherence is just bizarre. Frankly, growing up in the church left me with a broken moral code. It was only once I left it in my teens and had to work things out for myself that I feel like I could properly ground myself ethically. Having a moral system imposed on you can do that.

Better to join a church/synagogue/whathaveyou that DOESN’T require total philosophical adherence.

There’s a similar problem in political circles, as politics has in many cases (especially last 5 years) replaced religion. Adherence is mandated by many, but the healthiest political circles/communities do not require strict adherence but instead allow healthy debate.

And in part, it is a difference in tradition. In Minneapolis, I was loosely connected with some Christian community houses (which were wonderful BTW), and one of the people who lived there was a (secular) Jewish person who made a kind of funny observation: She noted how Jewish people tended to get together and bond over arguments over the Torah, but in an evangelical Christian Bible study, everyone would “get together and just AGREE on everything!”

I tend to enjoy the process of philosophical/theological arguing as well, although I come from a evangelical Christian background, not a Jewish one. It’s just way more interesting to argue over stuff. And there is way less agreement out there on a lot of these topics.

Whether we talk about social justice, the ultimate fate of the universe, simulation theory, politics, utilitarianism, right and wrong and how that can or cannot have fundamental scientific bases. And also how spiritual vs physical interact with ideas as powerful entities themselves... Materialism is probably true on a literal basis, but ideas themselves have immense power, analogous to what the Ancients would talked about spirits ...is the Self a physical thing like a brain, or an idea or thought process or software that runs on the brain? How is that similar to the idea of a soul? Is it any different, and is dualism viewed from that perspective really incompatible with materialism? Why are people so resistant to the idea that a strong AI could have consciousness like a human or animal? If materialism is basically true (probably is), then it seems there’s nothing that one couldn’t effectively simulate. And why couldn’t we be in a simulation at this moment? Who runs this (possible) simulation and what are their goals? How is this any different from theological questions, and can we bring better insight to them? Are there things like “love” & “kindness” that we OUGHT to follow as our guiding principle in spite of lack of evidence of their utility? Is “right and wrong” purely situational or should they transcend merely being useful?

Anyway, these ideas, which one might think are obsolete with modern science, aren’t going away even from a purely materialist perspective. And neither do I think the need for community is going away any time. But it sure would be nice if we got rid of the “must have strict philosophical agreement” requirement that many (but not all) religious and political communities have.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most "solid" theology is just shaky philosophy, though.

I see no issues with Christianity from a philosophical standpoint. It explains things which our beyond our natural/physical world. Those things impact how we live in this world. I'm curious what you mean in your statement, please unpack your claim.

For me it raises more questions than it answers.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's Holy Week this week (the week before Easter starts) and every day there is a service in each parish. UK, Roman Catholic churches. You have to book online to reserve a place. A quick look at a few parishes in an area for big and small churches shows that all the services for each day of the week and weekend are booked out in advance. Obviously the numbers able to fit in the churches are capped because of Coronavi…

I might take my kids there. Then again I also took them to see Santa. Unfunny quip aside, it is a social gathering and it is undeniably positive for the community.

That really depends on the church. Many flavors of religion are a net negative for the community.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#157
Whether this is good or bad depends on what the substitute is.

Whatever it is, imo, intellectuals should be more involved in communities that cater to simpler folks. Otherwise, these often get co-opted by nefarious forces. See Qanon, Trumpism etc. Hopefully this is not people jumping to these.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#158
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The thing that underscores all of my experiences has been hypocrisy. This is, consistently, what I hear from friends and family as to why they have drifted away from the Catholic church, and is solidly my own reason as well. You see people, day-in-day out being terrible, judgmental, hateful people, except on Sunday when they're in the front row being holier than thou. It grates on you, and leaves a bad taste. It's e…

> You see people, day-in-day out being terrible, judgmental, hateful people, except on Sunday when they're in the front row being holier than thou. But you see this nearly everywhere, with every type of organization/group. A prime example would be politicians and political groups who constantly talk about how they want to help people, but then throw those same people under the bus to get what they want. This is not s…

Those other institutions are also losing credibility. Fewer people than ever claim membership in unions, political parties, and public office holders and legislatures as groups are continually setting new records for low approval ratings.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#159
post #35

For comparison, UK church membership is Numbers for those claiming to be of "No religion" range from from 50 to 60% depending on region. 38% don't believe in God or any higher spiritual power. The interesting thing is people will identify as Christian on the census while also not claiming to subscribe to any particular religion in other surveys. 2021 census (just completed this month) results will be interesting http…

I think part of the problem is that there is no clear tradition of “cultural Christian” like there is for “atheist Jew”. I don’t believe in God. I love the high church and choral traditions. I attend a church where the minister feels the same. Am I a Christian? No. And yes.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"religiousness" is not likely to be an inheritable genetic trait, so the children of a religious person may or may not be religious themselves, and vice-versa. The overall culture is likely to have a more powerful impact on this than solely parenting.

You don't think that the children of religious parents are more likely to be religious than children of atheists?

Because of genetics or the fact that they were raised by religious parents?
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