Live data from Hacker News

Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

reuters.com

151–160 of 623 posts

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was working 48 to 72 hours a week as an EMT, I didn't find many of my coworkers to be "mediocre lazy donkeys." Far from it. They were kind and hardworking people. They were also frequently subjected to incompetent or inattentive managers who didn't both knowing the company policies and had to be constantly reminded to see employees as people. As a union steward I had to call managers several times per week to…

Some ambulance companies out here are so understaffed that employees regularly work 48 to 72 hours STRAIGHT. Still only get paid $13/hr though.

Fortunately it wasn't regular, but my record was 84 hours straight. (And for $11/hr!)

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#152
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess businesses don't need the government laws enforcing shareholder voting rights and minority shareholder protections then right?

No absolutely the government should enforce legal agreements via the legal system. But that's not what this is suggesting, right? This is suggesting the government should treat unions preferentially, not equitably.

No, this is suggesting that government should enforce workers' rights to decide freely if they want to unionize. Companies routinely skirt this right by taking explicit anti-unionization efforts, and there are many firms specializing in this.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#153

I wish the NRLB would be much harsher against business owners and executives who engage in anti-union rhetoric and behaviors. People have the right to form unions, lying about losing benefits and lowering pay should be handled much more harshly, there should be actual penalties instead of just having to read a statement and delete a tweet.

I mean the quote about options is probably true. It just means employees won't be given any more options. Unionised workers typically get no or very few stock options compared to industries with no unionisation.

Unionized workers get what they negotiate for. Given how tech works, a Tesla union very well could demand options. It is absolutely false that unionization precludes employees getting options.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#154
post #102
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Richard Ortiz was fired after the incident , but because Tesla did not have standing rules against browsing employees' profiles on Workday or screenshotting them , apparently that's not allowed. The real question is if they'd have been fired for doing that if they weren't a union organizer. And perhaps more importantly, whether you'd be able to convince a judge that looking up co-workers on an internal directory an…

I don't see how it isn't a firable offense given that it violates the confidentiality agreement that lists termination as a possible consequence of violation. So it seems to me that what Oritz did must qualify as protected activity...

First of all, the system wasn’t treated as confidential information, and workers weren’t told that use of the system was restricted. Second, the data they extracted were simply names and photos. Third, they posted them to a FB group comprising Tesla employees. If you read the judgment, indeed, all of these actions are considered protected activity.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#156

I wish the NRLB would be much harsher against business owners and executives who engage in anti-union rhetoric and behaviors. People have the right to form unions, lying about losing benefits and lowering pay should be handled much more harshly, there should be actual penalties instead of just having to read a statement and delete a tweet.

for behaviours, yes, but for rhetoric, you're toeing a very dangerous line up against the 1st amendment.

Hey let’s not make it a freedom of speech issue. If you speak the words “if you what I dislike I’ll beat you up” you’re not asserting a 1A right, you’re just a bully

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#157
post #4
post #3

To repeat the key info from this case that makes one question the NRLB ruling (from reddit originally): The tweet is https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808 > Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcar…

Because of all of the above I disagree with the ruling. While yes Elon's tweet is borderline "intimidation", the guy was fired for very legitimate reasons, taking internal company information about employees and basically doxxing them on facebook. The NLRB shouldn't be defending doxxers.

He didn’t Dox them - he didn’t publish their home addresses or phone numbers, he merely said “these people testified on behalf of the company at a state hearing.” This is very clearly protected organizing activity, as documented with multiple case citations in the judge’s ruling.

In addition, the employee who was fired didn’t access the internal system. Someone else did, and texted him the photos, which he posted. The person who allegedly accessed the system only got a warning. So, if the concern is the improper access of company systems, then they punished the wrong guy.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#158
post #136
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Germany's most productive city is Berlin Where did you get this from? Germany is actually the only country in the EU where GDP per capita is higher when the capital is excluded. Munich is at 80,000€, Frankfurt (Main) 95,000€, Hamburg 60,000€, Berlin 40,000€ [1]. Germany is highly federated, with large companies near or in small towns or cities that only exist because the company was founded there decades or centuri…

> Where did you get this from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_cities_by_GDP > Germany is actually the only country in the EU where GDP per capita is higher when the capital is excluded. Munich is at 80,000€, Frankfurt (Main) 95,000€, Hamburg 60,000€, Berlin 40,000€ [1]. I was using the city with the highest absolute GDP. That's a fair point that Munich has a higher GDP per capita. > You are talking abou…

You are very much ignoring a lot of historical developments that lead to the situation that Berlin is in. Berlin used to be an industrial powerhouse, many well-known companies were founded there - Siemens for example. Borsig, Varta, Osram, ... had large factories in the city. However, after WW2, Berlin was divided and the western part hard to reach, so most companies relocated, most industries disappeared. Siemens moved headquarters to Bavaria. Despite all the self-inflicted problems that slow economic growth, the expectation that Berlin could or should be on par with other capitals is problematic.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#159
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for behaviours, yes, but for rhetoric, you're toeing a very dangerous line up against the 1st amendment.

The 1st amendment does not and should not apply to business matters. You don't even need to look far from the subject matter, Musk has gotten in trouble before over misleading tweets. I don't see anyone bring up the first amendment when discussing corporate fraud. Why is it that executives can be accountable to shareholders but not workers?

Because the workers don't own the company. Accountability to shareholders is built upon ownership.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#160
post #134

Working in France completely changed my view of unions. I sure hope the horrors I saw won’t happen to Tesla.

In Eastern Canada our unions have become problematic too, though they're not as vile as France's.

My first experience were of course were teachers. At least half of them hates children but love being the boss in the room. Most of them quit before because obtaining their seniority, and they tend to be the more conscientious ones. In 6th grade I had a teacher fired because she physically assaulted me multiple times by hitting me on the arms, during most of the scholar year. Did I say fired? No sorry, only unpaid leave for one week, and she was replaced by none other than... her son, because seniority I guess. In primary school our physical education teachers were obese.

The whole region (multiple cities in a rural area) where I grew up saw auto dealerships workers on strike / lock out for years. It began at the end of high school, at the end of university it was still going on 5~6 years later.

My first ever was in a grocery store, I was fired because "finally the union wants that job".

Stories I've heard from others abound: solder a lose component on a PCB? That's tech's job. Caught talking to a union member alone? Let's just say if having half the people you meet giving you death stares not enough, then be ready to defend yourself against all paranoid claims made against you. Army sub-contractors caught stealing gas masks and laptops by MPs?? Nah, "you have to build a file before firing them". People who did the coop programs (5 paid internships) in unionized organizations came back with quite a few horror stories of their own.

The worse is that we're forced to join and pay (at least software is pretty much free from unions), so much for liberty of association. Most votes are held with show of hands. They can be done secretly, but the vote to do that is also a show at hand, good luck being "that guy" who defies the executives' wishes for a strike when the war chess is full. And that's not even mentioning the various corruption scandals involving intimidation, threats of violence and organized crime.

Post reply on HN