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Griddy Is Shutting Down

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Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#151

Post by Nemo_bis »

bmarquez wrote: post #35

I wonder why there wasn't some sort of stop-loss pricing (disconnect service if price exceeds X) built into the user agreement. That would have prevented all the negative publicity. Griddy was a great idea, but it wasn't for everyone. Especially those who don't have backup solar or generators.

That could happen with instant settlement, but it's not necessarily desirable. Matt Levine covered the idea:

> In an electricity crisis, what you kind of want is to generate as much electricity as possible, and distribute it as efficiently and fairly as possible, and then send out bills later, and if people can’t pay the bills you sit down and figure out how to allocate the losses. Perhaps you have a Draconian allocation of “anyone who got the electricity has to pay the bill even if it takes the rest of eternity to work it off,” or perhaps you have some loss-sharing arrangement where the state or federal government eats some of the cost, or it’s allocated proportionally among ratepayers and utility shareholders over the next decade, or whatever. But you have some leisure to decide that, to have different stakeholders argue about it in different venues, if you let the electricity crisis turn into a credit crisis. If you just let it turn into a much worse electricity crisis then you miss your chance to fix it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-02-26/startu...

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#152

Post by irrational »

Robotbeat wrote: post #77

So, a thing I've been thinking of is that... because most people are on constant rate plans (where there isn't any incentive to cut back during a supply and/or demand crunch), the overall grid demand is a lot more inelastic than it would be if everyone where on a Griddy-like service. When, say, 75% of demand is insensitive to price signals, to get the 25% of demand that is sensitive to respond takes a MUCH bigger pri…

We installed solar panels a few years ago. They take care of 100% of our electrical needs (and we live in Portland Oregon where it is cloudy 9 months out of the year). I haven’t had to pay more than $12/month, and that is the fee we are charged by PGE to be hooked into the grid so we can sell them our excess. One thing I’ve found out is that we no longer worry about electricity usage. I used to fret about lights being left on, but no longer. That doesn’t seem healthy, but when you are no longer worrying about paying for something you stop worrying about wasting it.

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#153

Post by Teever »

fredophile wrote: post #139
tschwimmer wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a differing opinion, which is that paying market rates for electricity is not an innovation. It's a differing business model, and it's arguably a regression in terms of convenience and usability. As a consumer who doesn't work in the power industry, I don't really want to follow the power costs. When I feel cold, I want to turn the heat on. When the dishwasher is full, I want to run it. Having to do an additio…

If I had a gas station that offered gas for a fixed price, that was higher than the average gas price in your area, would you agree to use it exclusively? I don't see how the mental load for griddy is fundamentally different from buying gas at a gas station. When I notice prices are low I make the extra effort to top up my tank even if it means a small inconvenience. Do I drive less if gas prices are higher? No but o…

Does anywhere else in the world sell electricity like this?

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#154

Post by Nemo_bis »

stonogo wrote: post #144
zackees wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to point out that Global Warming as an existential threat is more of a political position and less of a scientific one. If the scientific method were applied to real planetary destruction we would rank the use of farmland as #1. If you doubt this, use Google earth and zoom in and notice the absolute scale of destruction farmland has done to the planet. The planet has been 15 degrees hotter than it is toda…

This post is a little insane, but I think the most important delusion to address is the iron claims. For one, in the interest of making this searchable, I'll point out that the oceanographer quoted was in fact John Martin. For the rest, you can look up EIFEX, and then read the May 30, 2008 Convention on Biological Diversity summary, which placed a moratorium on commercial iron-seeding efforts, leaving research on the…

Fascinating read:

> A key question concerns the amount of iron dust that would be required to induce draw down of CO2 from the atmosphere. [...] In total, this estimate concludes that ~2.8 million tons of biogenic iron oxides would be delivered over 100 days per year to the iron-limited regions of the global ocean to reach conditions where iron was not limiting primary productivity.

Many other sources are available at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_fertilization#References and friends, please add this one too!

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#155

Post by m463 »

irrational wrote: post #152
Robotbeat wrote: post #77

So, a thing I've been thinking of is that... because most people are on constant rate plans (where there isn't any incentive to cut back during a supply and/or demand crunch), the overall grid demand is a lot more inelastic than it would be if everyone where on a Griddy-like service. When, say, 75% of demand is insensitive to price signals, to get the 25% of demand that is sensitive to respond takes a MUCH bigger pri…

We installed solar panels a few years ago. They take care of 100% of our electrical needs (and we live in Portland Oregon where it is cloudy 9 months out of the year). I haven’t had to pay more than $12/month, and that is the fee we are charged by PGE to be hooked into the grid so we can sell them our excess. One thing I’ve found out is that we no longer worry about electricity usage. I used to fret about lights bein…

On the other hand, electricity pricing is a construct. To some extent it is designed so that you do worry and limit use of a shared resource.

I think other utilities like internet service adopt this construct, then monetize worry to get you to pay a little more for all-you-can-eat.

There's an interesting quote from a former chairman of the atomic energy commission:

It is not too much to expect that our children will enjoy in their homes electrical energy too cheap to meter, will know of great periodic regional famines in the world only as matters of history, will travel effortlessly over the seas and under them and through the air with a minimum of danger and at great speeds, and will experience a lifespan far longer than ours, as disease yields and man comes to understand what causes him to age

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_cheap_to_meter

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#156

Post by Traster »

Robotbeat wrote: post #77

So, a thing I've been thinking of is that... because most people are on constant rate plans (where there isn't any incentive to cut back during a supply and/or demand crunch), the overall grid demand is a lot more inelastic than it would be if everyone where on a Griddy-like service. When, say, 75% of demand is insensitive to price signals, to get the 25% of demand that is sensitive to respond takes a MUCH bigger pri…

I think you’re missing the wood for the trees a bit here. Firstly, the scale of the incident in TX went for beyond what could be handled by demand management through price controls anyway- most of the supply isn’t designed to handle those temperatures. No rate was going to increase supply (which is obviously half of the equation). On the demand side it’s a much more complex question than demand being inelastic. No matter what the price Ted Cruz was going to continue to heat his hot tub (in case he wanted a dip once he’d flown back from Cancun) whilst those who are in poverty are likely to have ended up unable to hear their homes simply because they couldn’t afford the price. And that’s the problem with using price- there is a minimum amount of electricity people need, and some people won’t be able to afford that minimum before others even think about turning off the flood lights on their tennis court.

Essentially the effect of what you’re saying is poor people would be priced out of an essential utility to ensure rich people get a stable supply.

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#157

Post by OJFord »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #146
Robotbeat wrote: post #77

So, a thing I've been thinking of is that... because most people are on constant rate plans (where there isn't any incentive to cut back during a supply and/or demand crunch), the overall grid demand is a lot more inelastic than it would be if everyone where on a Griddy-like service. When, say, 75% of demand is insensitive to price signals, to get the 25% of demand that is sensitive to respond takes a MUCH bigger pri…

> show some estimate of the daily energy cost There’s a massive programme in the UK to fit homes with meters that do this. https://www.smartenergygb.org/en

And Octopus (perhaps others, only I'm aware of) even offers an hourly tracker plan ('Agile'), with an API.

Also, due to Ofgem regulatory requirement all plans have a cap, so this couldn't happen. (It's not capped cheap of course, but it's not going to cost thousands/month. With Octopus specifically it translates to 35p/kWh cap on its variable rate plans, ~double recently typical prices.)

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#158

Post by asdf333 »

Traster wrote: post #156
Robotbeat wrote: post #77

So, a thing I've been thinking of is that... because most people are on constant rate plans (where there isn't any incentive to cut back during a supply and/or demand crunch), the overall grid demand is a lot more inelastic than it would be if everyone where on a Griddy-like service. When, say, 75% of demand is insensitive to price signals, to get the 25% of demand that is sensitive to respond takes a MUCH bigger pri…

I think you’re missing the wood for the trees a bit here. Firstly, the scale of the incident in TX went for beyond what could be handled by demand management through price controls anyway- most of the supply isn’t designed to handle those temperatures. No rate was going to increase supply (which is obviously half of the equation). On the demand side it’s a much more complex question than demand being inelastic. No ma…

there are stories of many empty office buildings fully powered with the lights on throughout the whole thing. Its possible if they were on a more price sensitive system those commercial property owners would have opted to shut off more of the power.

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#159

Post by OJFord »

Teever wrote: post #153
fredophile wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had a gas station that offered gas for a fixed price, that was higher than the average gas price in your area, would you agree to use it exclusively? I don't see how the mental load for griddy is fundamentally different from buying gas at a gas station. When I notice prices are low I make the extra effort to top up my tank even if it means a small inconvenience. Do I drive less if gas prices are higher? No but o…

Does anywhere else in the world sell electricity like this?

In the UK 'variable rate' tariffs are common, usually updated monthly.

Octopus' is daily, and also offers an hourly plan 'Agile' with an API.

There is a regulatory cap on the cost of energy, which is a bit convoluted, but Octopus passes it on as a 35p/kWh cap on variable rate plans.

Re: Griddy Is Shutting Down

#160

Post by sephamorr »

aaomidi wrote: post #95
Robotbeat wrote: post #77

So, a thing I've been thinking of is that... because most people are on constant rate plans (where there isn't any incentive to cut back during a supply and/or demand crunch), the overall grid demand is a lot more inelastic than it would be if everyone where on a Griddy-like service. When, say, 75% of demand is insensitive to price signals, to get the 25% of demand that is sensitive to respond takes a MUCH bigger pri…

oh my lord, what is this thinking. People have enough shit to be worried about than to worry about their power ticker going up and down. This is not something we should add as a burden to our citizens. Next I'm going to hear people wanting to short electricity.

'People' can simply choose a different electricity retailer if they want a constant rate and to not worry about this. If they were adequately informed about risks, why shouldn't we be allowed to choose our path? Industrial customers usually buy on the wholesale market, it doesn't seem a stretch that consumers could benefit from that too.
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