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Let's just use Emacs

beastwithin.org

151–160 of 169 posts

Re: Let's just use Emacs

#151
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only you could configure Eclipse until nothing was left of its design!

I've actually gotten Eclipse into a fairly clean state: http://i.imgur.com/ln2N8.png Most of the clutter is gone, but all of the nice IDE features (refactoring, immediate error detection, etc.) are still there. It's a nice way to work.

I run VS2010 in a similar way, though it is much easier to strip off the widgets.

Most of my co-workers don't understand how I can work that way. I tell them it's all about learning (or modifying) keybindings.

Re: Let's just use Emacs

#152
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The above goes for me as well. You might not have meant for it to be that way, but you just happened to use a pattern of sentences used by people with hidden criticism quite frequently.

Now I'm really worried. My comment received 36 upvotes. How many were from people who (a) think think that Lisp and Emacs users are brain-damaged and (b) Upvote what they perceive as an insult as a kind of social bullying rather than to signal a contribution to the discussion?

Probably quite a few.

Re: Let's just use Emacs

#153
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs is very usable if you can make a few reasonable assumptions about the user. Obviously it's not perfect (see the discussion of changing fonts in the originally posted blog) but making those assumptions about the user allows for a great deal of capability .

I agree entirely, but capability and usability are unrelated concepts. I don't doubt for a moment that emacs is immensely capable, which is why it has a large following. Usability is, according to wikipedia "the ease of use and learnability of a human-made object" Ease of use and learnability isn't exactly emacs strong points. As an obvious example you need to learn emacs-lisp to unlock its potential. Capable: absolu…

Capability and usability aren't entirely unrelated. Applications with limited capability have no need to distinguish between initial usability and advanced usability. Applications with lots of capability must make tradeoffs, as ease of use and learnability aren't merely measures of the initial experience.

Emacs is easy to use and easy to learn, once you learn some of its basic quirks.

It's easy to use:

To start emacs, just type emacs. To open a file, type C-x f, then the path to the file (you can use tab-complete to enter the path). This automatically opens the file in a new buffer. You can open as many files as you like, and switch between the buffers with C-x b. To split the screen and see two buffers at once, you can use C-x 2 or C-x 3 depending on whether you want them aligned vertically or horizontally. Text entry and basic editing use most of the same conventions as the unix command line. C-a to go to the beginning of a line, C-e to go to the end, C-k to kill, C-y to yank. C-s forward-searches for a word. C-s again searches for the next instances.

Emacs is easy to learn:

To get a list of keybindings, such as the ones I mentioned above, type C-h b. This presents a list of hotkeys mapped to functions. The function names are descriptive. To get a more detailed description of any function in the list, simply put the cursor over the function name and hit enter. Press q to go back to your buffer.

Navigating the buffers can get complicated sometimes, and the function names can be archaic and definitely take some getting used to. There's also a lot of information available and it can be challenging to sort through it. But, all that information IS available and usually easy to get. That makes it easier to learn in the long run.

Also, to address your example, you don't need to know emacs-lisp to start appreciating its capability, and once you do start customizing basic configuration it's not too much more difficult than any other configuration language. From my .emacs, for example:

    (global-set-key "\M-[" 'start-kbd-macro)
    (global-set-key "\M-]" 'end-kbd-macro)
    (global-set-key "\C-b" 'switch-to-buffer)
It's very straightforward, once you know what "\M" and "\C" mean. At first, you don't really need to know what the single quote means, just that it's necessary. For something less intuitive:

    (setq inhibit-splash-screen t)
It's still pretty clear what that does.

Re: Let's just use Emacs

#154

I resonate somewhat with the gripes about Emacs' crustiness. But on the other hand, I don't understand the complaints about it being ugly. I haven't heard that for a while. I'd like to think that my Emacs is quite pretty: http://jlongster.com/s/emacs.png There are things Emacs can do which VIM will never do. And vice-versa. They are separate editors embracing separate philosophies. Lastly, keep in mind that this is 4…

>They are separate editors embracing separate philosophies.

What are the two different philosophies?

Re: Let's just use Emacs

#155

I resonate somewhat with the gripes about Emacs' crustiness. But on the other hand, I don't understand the complaints about it being ugly. I haven't heard that for a while. I'd like to think that my Emacs is quite pretty: http://jlongster.com/s/emacs.png There are things Emacs can do which VIM will never do. And vice-versa. They are separate editors embracing separate philosophies. Lastly, keep in mind that this is 4…

>They are separate editors embracing separate philosophies. What are the two different philosophies?

From my limited experience with both: Vim is for editing text efficiently, Emacs is an allrounder. This is easily shown when you look at how they do things. In Emacs you have to press ctrl and/or alt for almost every keyboard shortcut. Personally I prefer the Vim way of having different modes, which let me keep my fingers in a comfortable position, while typing at full speed and utilizing all common, easily reached keys for shortcuts.

Re: Let's just use Emacs

#157
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs is very usable if you can make a few reasonable assumptions about the user. Obviously it's not perfect (see the discussion of changing fonts in the originally posted blog) but making those assumptions about the user allows for a great deal of capability .

I agree entirely, but capability and usability are unrelated concepts. I don't doubt for a moment that emacs is immensely capable, which is why it has a large following. Usability is, according to wikipedia "the ease of use and learnability of a human-made object" Ease of use and learnability isn't exactly emacs strong points. As an obvious example you need to learn emacs-lisp to unlock its potential. Capable: absolu…

> the ease of use and learnability of a human-made object

So usability has two separate definitions.

> Capable: absolutely. Easy to use: definitely not.

Actually, using Emacs is quite easy to use once you've learned it. Most operations can be done with much greater economy of motion than its main competitors. (vim excluded) It's the learnability aspect where it fares poorly, at least in the context of users who have been raised in a WIMP paradigm.

Re: Let's just use Emacs

#158
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs is very usable if you can make a few reasonable assumptions about the user. Obviously it's not perfect (see the discussion of changing fonts in the originally posted blog) but making those assumptions about the user allows for a great deal of capability .

I agree entirely, but capability and usability are unrelated concepts. I don't doubt for a moment that emacs is immensely capable, which is why it has a large following. Usability is, according to wikipedia "the ease of use and learnability of a human-made object" Ease of use and learnability isn't exactly emacs strong points. As an obvious example you need to learn emacs-lisp to unlock its potential. Capable: absolu…

Seems like there is a third category lurking in here.

I find it easy to use--i have it on every platform and use it for almost all of my tasks.

But the third category I think you are leading up to here is the difficulty in learning. I admit that is not small.

Re: Let's just use Emacs

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends. evangineer's tl;dr comment was a decently accurate summarization of the content of the article. If you're meaning the typical "tl;dr [witty/sarcastic comment about TFA's author's shortcomings]", sure, those don't belong on hn. evangineer's comment seemed genuinely useful, though.

Thanks. I've been using tl;dr as a shorthand for this is my summary of the article in question. I now appreciate that not everybody sees it like that. In future, I shall refrain from using tl;dr and just summarize without any preamble.

Beginning the comment with "Summary:" would be helpful.

Re: Let's just use Emacs

#160
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I work on a 5GB source tree at work with a couple (or more? I haven't looked) thousand Java source files. the linux kernel is 14 million lines of code and the size of its source tree is 500MB, you are working on a source tree that is ten times the size of linux? 140M lines of code? In any case it can't be all 140M LoC in a couple thousand java files so something should be clarified. > I'm not an Eclipse fan by any…

C. For Java, at least, Eclipse will automatically display Javadoc for a library you download (in both mouseover hover and a sidebar window) , and will navigate to source if the library has an attached source jar (which maven will usually find from a Repository )

Does it in PHP PDT, too.
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