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How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

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Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#151

Post by jbarham »

sershe wrote: post #142
HDMI_Cable wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's this movement in Canadian political circles that calls for us to have a population of ~100 million by 2100.[1] Their argument is essentially that Canada has a lot of space (especially with climate change and all [2]), and by bringing in a lot of people from other countries, that will make Canada a more competitive country on the world stage. In my personal opinion, I don't have anything against the movement,…

Doesn't Canada have special immigration programs for specific provinces that are better/offer faster path to citizenship/etc. to try to solve this problem? I am pretty sure I remember Quebec had one that was better than BC (I used to be an immigrant in BC).

You're probably thinking of the Quebec Immigrant Investor Program (https://www.immigration.ca/quebec-immigrant-investor-program). In theory applicants should "intend to settle in the province of Quebec", in practice most of them end up in Vancouver or Toronto.

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#152

Post by [deleted] »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #98
blueblisters wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Canada is bringing 400,000+ new immigrants per year until 2023 for permanent residence status Canada is adding > 1% of its population in immigrants every year? I am curious if that is sustainable politically and economically. I suspect this will only drive down tech wages even further and put pressure on local housing markets, utilities, healthcare and social programs.

Canada also adds 1% to its population in babies, who can't work at all, and are fully dependent on others for housing, healthcare, and social programs.

[deleted]

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#153

Post by otoburb »

guytv wrote: post #146
DanHulton wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally just left a really enjoyable job with a Toronto company for a California company that pays 50% more. This is completely correct.

Curious here. if you factor in cost of living differences, what is the resulting uplift?

Semi-flippant response forthcoming, but if you factor in cost of living differences in their respective local currencies (e.g. moving to NYC or SF pre-COVID), healthcare (pay more in the US), comparable taxes (NYC/SF) to Toronto/Vancouver, then you likely might come out roughly the same or slightly ahead in absolute amounts saved depending on the salary+bonus bumps.

The kicker though is that presumably many Canadians harbour some type of fantasy in their heads of moving back home after N years, at which point the conversion of USD back to CAD can tip the balance. Historically the USD has been worth more than CAD, except for two times in 1974 and 2007.

It gets worse because Canadians that come down for "just a few years" probably end up staying longer since the original logic that drew us down in the first place is likely still valid. Throw on top the overhead and friction of uprooting your settled life (friends and maybe kids) and then it becomes even tougher to go back.

Next thing you know, you're applying for a greencard and the rest is history.

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#154

Post by otoburb »

jariel wrote: post #128
MattGaiser wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did you not like about Element AI's model? I have no idea what it was really, I am just curious.

Element was a group of ex-consultants and a bunch of AI researchers with no market, no product plan. They were going to do some 'consulting' type work, and then ostensibly use the results of that to come up with product offers. The obvious fallibility in that is: 1) The companies they are working with will not give up their data and allow them to be used in Element Products. No way. In some cases, maybe for a fee, bu…

>>But in some situations, raising $150M with government and institutional backers is easier than raising from traditional VC directly. Like a big government backed initiative with all the flair, PR, announcements.

The >$150M raised, a good chunk sourced by the provincial government, is in a sense more "precious" because there's so little Canadian venture capital with low(er) risk tolerances floating around, resulting in yet further tightening of Canadian VC capital. The problem compounds itself.

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#156

Post by iridium_core »

blueblisters wrote: post #93
somerandomqaguy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now that Amazon, Microsoft and Google are setting up shop right here in Canada, the talent drain away from Canadian companies is only accelerating. Maybe. Canada is bringing 400,000+ new immigrants per year until 2023 for permanent residence status, most of which are skilled workers of some kind. Probably a safe bet between that those three are setting up shop here in part because they can bring in international tal…

> Canada is bringing 400,000+ new immigrants per year until 2023 for permanent residence status Canada is adding > 1% of its population in immigrants every year? I am curious if that is sustainable politically and economically. I suspect this will only drive down tech wages even further and put pressure on local housing markets, utilities, healthcare and social programs.

Its sustainable politically if you call anyone who opposes the scheme racist - only a single country in the top 10 migrant contributors to Canada is of European heritage:

https://www.cicnews.com/2020/02/a-quarter-of-canadas-immigra...

This is already causing long-term social problems, like sex-selective abortion which is prevalent in Indian communities in Canada even after multiple generations:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S170121631...

If the USA is restricting immigration, and Canada is not, this is just another driver for the top talent to flee Canada to the USA.

Canada might succeed in becoming a dumping-ground of migrants, a country of cheap back-office labour and expensive housing, but that sounds like a terrible place to live or develop any cutting-edge technology.

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#157

Post by 3pt14159 »

triceratops wrote: post #145
3pt14159 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I appreciate the response. I'm not saying that the difference is huge, just that I've noticed it. The Americans I've worked with seem to get a little bit more done, generally speaking, than the Canadians. Not enough to make up for the difference, but still. And of course we're talking about distributions of productivity here. One of the fastest developers I've ever worked with was French Canadian. I know Americ…

> I'm comparing your typical 50 person startup to a typical 50 person startup in Canada...I could make $200 CAD in Toronto. Shrug. It's been a couple of years since I last looked. But I don't know any 50-person startup in Toronto that pays that much. If you know specific names... :-)

I mean, I'm sorry to break this to you but if you're good at data science or complex backend web development it's pretty common. I was making around $225k CAD a year (straight cash, not counting options) at 500px a decade ago when it was around 35 people. Now nominally I was Chief Data Scientist and it included some IP from my two person startup they acquired, but it was an aquihire and everyone knew it. I had just turned 27.

Look for startups funded by pro investors with deep pockets that operate in Canada and negotiate with a willingness to walk away.

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#158

Post by mk81 »

coldtea wrote: post #2

Who says it doesn't work? If it produces viable companies, it does work (sure, it might fail to do that, but the parent haven't showed that). Don't have to ve FAANG sized. If anything, in my book, it's more of a societal success and healthier for them to NOT be FAANG sized - and screw the VCs.

Typical Canadian attitude^

Proudly mediocre

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#159

Post by gabbo »

jbarham wrote: post #151
sershe wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't Canada have special immigration programs for specific provinces that are better/offer faster path to citizenship/etc. to try to solve this problem? I am pretty sure I remember Quebec had one that was better than BC (I used to be an immigrant in BC).

You're probably thinking of the Quebec Immigrant Investor Program ( https://www.immigration.ca/quebec-immigrant-investor-program ). In theory applicants should "intend to settle in the province of Quebec", in practice most of them end up in Vancouver or Toronto.

Beyond the QIIP, there are a whole host of provincial nominee programs where provinces can set their own criteria that are different from the federal government: https://moving2canada.com/provincial-nominee-program-pnp/

Re: How the Canadian Tech Scene Encourages Finite Gameplay

#160

Post by gabbo »

guyzero wrote: post #11
guyzero wrote: post #7

IMO the conclusion isn't that the scene "doesn't work" but that it's not producing a lot of "moon shots" and tends to focus on "roof shots". There is nothing inherently wrong with this strategy and it produces solid gains over time, but it's a lot harder going to accidentally create a billion dollar company. That said, Solect got acquired for 1.5B back 20 years ago, Shopify exists, it's not like there are zero Canadi…

That said, this article: https://betakit.com/narwhal-list-2020-tracks-a-year-of-massi... seems to think Canada is on track to produce a lot of unicorns in the next few years. Seems like pretty good work for a country 1/10th the size of the US.

From this list:

  Chinook Therapeutics
  Element AI
  Repare Therapeutics
  Enerkem
  DalCor Pharmaceuticals
  Verafin
  Fusion Pharmaceuticals
  Stormfiser Biogas
  Hootsuite
  North
Element AI was acquired by ServiceNow, North was acquired by Google. Both were widely seen to be overhyped underperformers. Element was acquired for roughly the $200M it raised in financing. North also raised about $200M over its lifetime and was reportedly acquired for around $180M. Not really value creation.

Chinook Therapeutics merged with Aduro Biotech and is now headquartered in Seattle. It's publicly traded as KDNY and is worth ~831M CAD.

Hootsuite is kind of stagnant. It has been on and off being close to being worth $1B since 2014, hardly a growth story.

Verafin was purchased by NASDAQ for $2.75B. A good exit, though it took nearly 20 years to get there and now it's just another Canadian office of a US tech company.

I don't know enough about the cleantech/pharmaceutical angle, but if this list is the best we can come up with, it's far from cause for the software industry to celebrate. My feeling on articles like the one you posted is they're mostly superficial cheerleading.

From https://medium.com/@lawrencekhov/narwhals-and-unicorns-where...:

  Despite investing the second most into venture capital amongst all OECD countries, Canada is producing the least amount of unicorns. Not only that, of the unicorns it produces, valuation are also the lowest amongst the group (to be fair, the sample size is tiny. Plus, Canada’s unicorns are generally really new compared to that of other countries, which may have opted to stay private for a variety of reasons). For an ecosystem that is by most metrics, really well funded and really strong, the number of narwhals and unicorns that it produces is disappointing. In terms of creating billion dollars startups, Canada is ruthlessly inefficient compared to the likes of Germany, Sweden and the United Kingdom.
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