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China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

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Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#151

Post by potiuper »

f430 wrote: post #95

Guo Wengui said back in September 2019 that "Jack Ma would be jailed or killed" on Kyle Bass's youtube channel. [1] At this point its not even a question of whether we will see Jack Ma in public again. Overnight he went from billionaire to peasantry. We've seen dozen cases like this: 1) Billionaire disappears or is "killed" 2) Billionaire's company becomes nationalized 3) Rinse & Repeat Everybody who isn't familiar w…

The USA is not a democracy it is a federal republic. Anyone who disagrees needs to recite the US pledge of allegiance, and review the US constitution. China is also a republic. But, neither of the two dominant USA parties currently espouse the Marxist Leninist doctrine.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#152

Post by creato »

throw7482625 wrote: post #100
reaperducer wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article is 44 years old. RFA isn't part of the CIA. It's part of U.S. Agency for Global Media. From Wikipedia: an independent agency of the United States government which operates various state-run media outlets.[2] It describes its mission, "vital to US national interests", to "inform, engage, and connect people around the world in support of freedom and democracy"[3] and in accordance with the "broad foreign p…

That’s literally the definition of propaganda. Why is it so difficult for Americans to believe that the US engages in a war of propaganda against countries it labels as “adversaries”? [1] [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-...

I think the disconnect here is that at least for a large part of RFA/RFE's history, simply broadcasting fair and accurate news was effective "propaganda".

Whether that's still true today or not is not something that anyone here is going to agree on.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#153

Post by shrimp_emoji »

reaperducer wrote: post #91
free_rms wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not covert, but it's quite literally a propaganda machine. The reason Radio Free Europe/Asia were founded was to broadcast the benefits of 'freedom' into communist-governed areas. You might think that we're qualitatively the good guys, and I'm all for freedom, but that's definitionally 'propaganda'.

I don't disagree that it was founded to try to convince the world that America is awesome. But "propaganda" is an overused term, and in this case, far too broad a brush. People who listen to RFA know this. People who don't only see that it's run by a U.S. government agency and think it's the equivalent of Soviet shortwave days. Not everything the government does is evil. Not everything the government publishes is pro…

Everything's propaganda. Even "objective" facts presented with the omission of other "objective" facts is propaganda. Look at something you think isn't propaganda. That's propaganda for your particular brand of sensibility about what is or isn't propaganda.

Propaganda is inescapable, like politics. It's all about whose you like the most at the present moment or which kind you're epistemically indoctrinated into. :3 (For me, I like scientific empiricism, but that position, too, is just a philosophical/political/propagandist leaning, frontloaded with all the assumptions and priors that go along with it. And I also think it's the best one, and I think it's dumb to disagree.)

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#154

Post by the_drunkard »

echelon wrote: post #108
f430 wrote: post #95

Guo Wengui said back in September 2019 that "Jack Ma would be jailed or killed" on Kyle Bass's youtube channel. [1] At this point its not even a question of whether we will see Jack Ma in public again. Overnight he went from billionaire to peasantry. We've seen dozen cases like this: 1) Billionaire disappears or is "killed" 2) Billionaire's company becomes nationalized 3) Rinse & Repeat Everybody who isn't familiar w…

> As much as people in the West praise CCP's economic rise Who is praising the CCP's economic rise? The American consensus as far as I can tell is that we need to shut them out and push them into decline. The West should brain drain the best and brightest from China.

>Who is praising the CCP's economic rise?

Did you miss the last 40 years in which US economic policy was underpinned by the thesis that shipping manufacturing jobs to China would give rise to a middle class that supports democracy?

Well, here's a reminder if you needed it.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#155

Post by tshaddox »

thewarrior wrote: post #30
xster wrote: post #3

Is it me or there's some cognitive dissonance going on with the whole article discussing the ramifications of a nationalization without describing at all what sourced this "news" in the first place? A cursory search seems to show this is a regurgitation on a sourceless Radio Free Asia article ( https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/alibaba-probe-1225202... ) from December?

Radio free Asia has deep ties to US agencies. It isn’t really a credible source.

Are there any sources reporting on China's domestic policies that don't have deep ties to either China or US agencies?

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#157

Post by refulgentis »

marcinzm wrote: post #117
echelon wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As much as people in the West praise CCP's economic rise Who is praising the CCP's economic rise? The American consensus as far as I can tell is that we need to shut them out and push them into decline. The West should brain drain the best and brightest from China.

>Who is praising the CCP's economic rise? A majority of Americans until relatively recently? China was seen favorably by most Americans until the last decade. An economic world power that we should strengthen relations with if polls are to be believed. For example: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/10/06/unfavorable-vi...

Polling data on Americans favorability to the CCP is orthogonal to OP noting we're begging the question when we say people are praising the CCP.

The only set of charts that matches your description re: Americans viewing China favorably is the first set of charts, which is in response to question 8b, do you view China _unfavorably_, for a worldwide survey broken down by country.

Question framing matters a lot on surveys, particularly for questions outside people's daily concerns. you'll get dramatically different distributions on the questions "do you view china favorably" or "do you view china favorably"

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#158

Post by mhh__ »

notJim wrote: post #75
orange_tee wrote: post #32

The West thought once China is full of billionaires, the billionaires having all that wealth would then have the power to oppose and dissolve the CCP. Didn't go as planned.

Why is it better for Chinese billionaires to run the country than the CCP? Seems like just trading one master for another.

The conditions that lead to billionaires through business - note the distinction from russian oligarchs - are generally pretty liberal. You still dont want billionaires actually in charge, but there is a correlation between economic freedom and social freedom.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#159

Post by jjcc »

reaperducer wrote: post #107
throw7482625 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s literally the definition of propaganda. Why is it so difficult for Americans to believe that the US engages in a war of propaganda against countries it labels as “adversaries”? [1] [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-...

No one said that the U.S. doesn't engage in propaganda. But RFA News isn't it. Why is it so difficult for Americans to believe Suggesting that "Americans" suffer from a lack of introspection reveals your own biases. 350 million people. 350 million different worldviews.

So in your view as one of 350 million, RFA is only(or mainly) set up for providing news to brainwashed Chinese people but not promoting democracy and universal human rights value?

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#160

Post by nabla9 »

China is Unitary Marxist–Leninist one-party socialist republic. Communists are actually communists.

This is what is eventually supposed to happen every Chinese company according to the Chinese Communist party. They just allow private ownership, "for now".

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