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Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

nytimes.com

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Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#151

Post by webmaven »

_Understated_ wrote: post #125
dragonwriter wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the exact situation in which facial recognition is very bad. No, it's not. > Imagine the stasi had it? Yes, the problem there is the Stasi, not the technology. There is literally no technology that the Stasi having would be a good thing, including pen and paper. Or things so basic we don't tend to think of them as “technology”, like, say, language.

> There is literally no technology that the Stasi having would be a good thing, including pen and paper. Not sure I agree with that analogy... pen and paper doesn't scale! Having the ability to do something at global scale, like facial recognition or real-time tracking and saying "Honest! We won't use it for dodgy things" is not sufficient... It'd be naieve to say I'd rather it didn't exist, however that cat is out o…

> Not sure I agree with that analogy... pen and paper doesn't scale!

Most of what the Stasi used didn't scale. They used it anyway.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#152

Post by jaspax »

michaelt wrote: post #140
zo1 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying people with "right-leaning view" need to be "re-integrated" into society? What are they, crazy serial killers or something? Here's a crazy thought. How about we do nothing and just arrest anyone that breaks laws, right or left.

Obviously, the vast majority of people with right-leaning views weren't even at the Capitol. But if you believe the rioters were part of an attempted coup, trying to overthrow democracy and install Trump as a dictator while setting bombs to kill their opponents, that seems pretty crazy to me. Of course, some people might argue it wasn't an attempted coup, just a mob of high-spirited protesters. Much like sports fans…

The actual behavior of the protesters seems to match your third paragraph much more than your second paragraph. They got into the capitol building and then... just kind of wandered around. Took some selfies. Stole some memorabilia. Nothing about their behavior suggests that there was an organized plan to actually take over the USG, or that they protesters themselves had any idea what to do after they broke in.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#153

Post by avl999 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #104
throwaway346434 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This event is highly comparable to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch - Attempted coup - Radicalized and misinformed supporters (majority) with an extremist, armed element (minority) - Extremely dangerous moment for free and fair elections in the west What would the world have looked like if in 1923, the disaffected germans who took part in that were identified en masse; and serious efforts were made to r…

The sad thing is precisely that no-one cares about "re-integrating" proponents of right-leaning views "to society". Everyone is talking about forcibly deplatforming them all out of society which, even if successful, will only make them far more marginalized and far more open to dangerous, violent extremism. Is this really what we need? We've had enough divisiveness already, so why not try a more constructive approach…

> The sad thing is precisely that no-one cares about "re-integrating" proponents of right-leaning views "to society".

Are you arguing violent extremism and trying to overthrow the government is synonymous with "right-leaning views"?

No one is deplatforming Mitch McConnell, Mike Lee, Ben Sasse, John Thune and many others all of whom with "right leaning views", even further to the right the president.

Your argument is a strawman. It's like when twitter bans jihadist leaders, going out and saying "why are muslims being deplatformed?". Which is not true.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#154

Post by logicchains »

fpgaminer wrote: post #22
mmmBacon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we already have a system in the West where people are afraid to speak openly; it’s referred to as cancel culture but exists elsewhere. The difference is that it’s not a formal government system but more of a mob social justice system.

Comparing cancel culture to China's social credit system is ... not a great choice, in my opinion. Regardless, I've had this theory about cancel culture. I don't necessarily agree with cancel culture, for the aforementioned problem of it being mob social justice. But it seems to me like it has arisen out of a failure by the real justice system. Issues like sexism in particular, which affect half of the population, ha…

> Comparing cancel culture to China's social credit system is ... not a great choice, in my opinion.

Yep. I lived in China for a few years, speak Chinese, and never heard of anybody being kicked out of a job at a private company because of their social credit score.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#155

Post by itronitron »

jaspax wrote: post #152
michaelt wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, the vast majority of people with right-leaning views weren't even at the Capitol. But if you believe the rioters were part of an attempted coup, trying to overthrow democracy and install Trump as a dictator while setting bombs to kill their opponents, that seems pretty crazy to me. Of course, some people might argue it wasn't an attempted coup, just a mob of high-spirited protesters. Much like sports fans…

The actual behavior of the protesters seems to match your third paragraph much more than your second paragraph. They got into the capitol building and then... just kind of wandered around. Took some selfies. Stole some memorabilia. Nothing about their behavior suggests that there was an organized plan to actually take over the USG, or that they protesters themselves had any idea what to do after they broke in.

They didn't just wander around the capitol building...

https://youtu.be/lhjRXO72v1s

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#156

Post by JumpCrisscross »

j8hn wrote: post #116
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I love the back and forth of terminology ("rioter" vs "terrorist" vs "attacker") There was a mix of terrorists, insurrectionists, rioters, hooligans and protesters in the crowd. Those who entered the Capitol were no longer protesters. Those damaging or stealing property were more than hooligans. Those aiming to disrupt the election count were more than rioters. And those with aims on harming members of Congress wer…

I agree that we shouldn't paint all the people in attendance with a broad brush. What would you call the people who entered the Capital building and stayed inside the red velvet ropes, who took selfies and made videos like they were on a tour?

> What would you call the people who entered the Capital building and stayed inside the red velvet ropes, who took selfies and made videos like they were on a tour?

Hooligans. To be criminally charged but allowed to avoid jail time. If they, I don’t know, refrain from breaking into federal property for a few years and pass a community college civics course, the record is sealed.

What they did was serious. Little different from people who jump the White House fence. But many of us on this forum can look to their youth and remember when being in a crowd doing something feloniously mischevious was something they would have gone along with. I can. We have enough of a problem with mass incarceration to not add to it.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#157

Post by Youden »

jackson1442 wrote: post #24
Youden wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Problem with this is that facial recognition is not perfect. Why is that a problem? Are there any investigative tools that are perfect or is there a reason why facial recognition should be held to a higher standard? > It's no better than fnger printing which often leads to unjust arrests. You need to be more specific. Why is it no better? Has facial recognition been demonstrated to lead to more unjust arrests than…

The problems come from when it is hailed as perfect and arrests are made solely on a facial recognition result[0]. Facial recognition has also time and time again proven to be racially biased[1][2]. Not to mention how easy it is to create a surveillance state with facial recognition[3]. [0] https://threatpost.com/lawsuit-claims-flawed-facial-recognit... [1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/19/tech/facial-recognition-study…

> The problems come from when it is hailed as perfect and arrests are made solely on a facial recognition result[0].

But is facial recognition itself the problem here? It seems to me the problem is the human who makes a decision based on flawed evidence. This is likely to happen based on other investigative methods as well and not just facial recognition (e.g. "the old lady across the street was sure she saw you breaking into that house the other day").

> Facial recognition has also time and time again proven to be racially biased[1][2].

If we know about the bias, we can correct for it. First in training and decision making and then through improving the facial recognition models.

And again, I'm sure there's racial bias in other investigative methods as well.

> Not to mention how easy it is to create a surveillance state with facial recognition[3].

So long as you have the ability to install millions/billions of cameras throughout the state and put them under centralized control. If that's legal in the US, the problem is that the law allows it, not facial recognition. In most European countries, such a thing would be incredibly illegal.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#158

Post by redis_mlc »

naruvimama wrote: post #132

The CCP heartily welcomes the emergence of the USSA in a bloodless war. They had no role to play in this.

- Dominion voting machines appears to be owned by the CCP. It was bought for $400 million just before the Nov. 3 election.

- fake ballots were printed in China and made their way into US elections. Shredded ballots with invoices in Chinese were found in one of the contested states. The CCP could track where they were printed if they wanted to.

- The wife of McConnell, Elaine Chao, is CCP, and was a US official until recently. She financed his campaigns.

China Observer Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgX9pJ_72EE

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#159

Post by rkagerer »

JohnBooty wrote: post #99
newguy1234 wrote: post #87

What exactly do people expect to happen by identifying the capitol rioters? Okay they get arrested, maybe charged with a crime. Others will get doxxed and most will lose their jobs. They'll become social outcasts. Do you really want a bunch of very angry people to effectively be pushed into a corner, demonized by society and so on? This will end up having very big unintended consequences.

I've marched in support of BLM. Protest is necessary, and for it to be effective it generally has to make folks uncomfortable on some level and that may include a level of civil disobedience. It's not supposed to be all fun and sunshine, particularly if you are the adversary of those protesting. I'm diametrically opposed to Trump and his supporters on a lot of issues, but I recognize that a functional society needs t…

Not sure why your comment was at the bottom of the page; it seems like one of the more thoughtful responses.

I have to admit my gut feeling on governments using facial recognition at scale to round up its citizens feels like something you'd find under an authoritarian regime, reminds me of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14643433

I think it's important to try to frame an opinion on tech like this from a well-informed viewpoint, striving to lend appropriate weight to the latest incidents while avoiding the temptation for tunnel vision to fixate on immediate goals to the exclusion of broader, long-term consequences.

I agree acts that crossed too far past the line of civil disobedience ought to be held to account.

I just hope our collective response doesn't erode the willingness of people of good conscience to take a stand when they see their institutions behave in a legitimately unsanctionable manner.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#160

Post by vntok »

paganel wrote: post #138
vntok wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you are wrong and any video of the event will show you that they were chanting "Hang Mike Pence", that they built hanging knots that they left for everyone to see, that they ran after senators and that they trampled police officers.

> Hang Mike Pence Somewhere on an older hard-disk I have a copy of all the terrorist incidents starting from the 1960s up to 2006 or so (web-scrapped at the time when that data was still partially open), no-where in there had I seen this type of events, there were mostly bombings, airplane kidnapping and the like. What you are describing falls though under the "insurrection" label, heck, we were saying the same thing…

An insurrection is when "The People" rebel against their Government. Participants in that specific (failed) coup were not "The People". For a very close example, you can read about the failed 1981 Spanish coup d'Etat attempt here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Spanish_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

It's uncanny how similar these events were:

> Lieutenant-Colonel Antonio Tejero led 200 armed Civil Guard officers into the Congress of Deputies during the vote to elect a President of the Government. The officers held the parliamentarians and ministers hostage for 18 hours, during which time King Juan Carlos I denounced the coup in a televised address, calling for rule of law and the democratic government to continue. Though shots were fired, the hostage-takers surrendered the next morning without killing anyone.

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