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Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

hongkongwatch.org

151–160 of 179 posts

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#151
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Counterpoint. Everyone I meet in San Francisco is against colonialism. > Have you considered that Hong Kong is part of China, was taken as a colony, Democracy was introduced and by supporting a different system of government, in a country that isn't yours, is a form of internalized colonialism? > Our country is literally falling apart. > Our biggest problem in the west is our tendency to export our problems. China…

> People have this idea that an enormous unified China is somehow natural. The linguistic variation of Chinese is larger than the romance languages today. China being some unified country speaking Mandarin is about as natural as Rome coming back today and enforcing Italian on all its previous empire. More drivel by someone who likely can't speak or read any dialect of Chinese and has no idea of history. Rome has been…

> There's no way you don't have enough self awareness to notice how passive aggressive this sounds. Besides, you've posted 6 comments in the past hour. I posted 7 in the past day.

So then you're lying about being rate-limited?

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#152
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course the CCP used those photos as propaganda to reenforce the arguably false narrative presented to mainland Chinese that the CIA was behind the resistance. The psychological aspect of warfare never ceases to amaze me.

Not everything is a propaganda there is some truth to it, given Hong Kong is the only ground left for US to try to destabilise China to slow its growth. This is also the reason China took hardline on Hong Kong as they see it as strategic weak spot. Moreover actions of China in Hong Kong are supported by majority of people in China. This tyranny of majority exists in democracy too, what happened in Kashmir is 100 time…

Re: your link - Could you point me specifically to what you were referencing as part of saying "China is built by hard work of its people not by CCP"? Thanks in advance.

The way to slow China's growth most efficiently is through economics; it's not the people of China that we want growth to slow for, the purpose and intent is to take power away from the CCP - to free the people of China, as in America and other Democracies, we inherently trust - have faith - that individuals can make the right, good, best decisions for themselves.

"Moreover actions of China in Hong Kong are supported by majority of people in China" - this is the functional result of control-oppression systems on free speech with threat of a spectrum of potential harm that can come to you, your family, even your place of work. This isn't the positive argument point you think it is. The CCP can control the narrative and suppress the truth as they see fit.

"Given the way US president pardoned people who committed genocide..." - this is a very weak argument considering the US compared to the China is an apples to oranges comparison to begin with: every 4 years the US has an election vs. in China it's the CCP in control always; this is a weak foundation to argue from on its own. It's an even weaker argument when you don't understand that Democracy - and the freedom to vote - is literally polling the population to understand that state of the union, of the nation, their health and their beliefs. Trump is a symptom of multi-generational dis-ease progression, where the efficiencies of capitalism, along with the duopoly that's been able to form and solidify - along with the regulatory capture that has occurred for 4+ decades, industrial complexes and bad actors tightening their grip of society by extracting more and more resources from the average person, and allowing suffering and dis-ease progression to occur. Mainstream media has played a role as well, the amalgamation of it into just a small handful of controllers - for TV and newspapers - has allowed the narrative to be more easily controlled; not as much as the CCP's control but it gets close to it, resulting in only 2 main narratives - of the duopoly. It’s incorrect, a mistake to believe Trump is America, he simply made his way up through broken-weak systems that I just described - that exist via currently inadequate policy, this current state - status quo - that we can and have learned from - and will evolve from with new, updated policy to help steer, right this ship called America.

Sorry but the "no deaths" is a false dichotomy - the treatment of these people can be like of the Uighurs if they don't fall in line with whatever rules they want to enforce; and certainly the CCP will be looking into everyone in HK's past to then see what they should do with them on a case-by-case basis.

"China is built by hard work of its people not by CCP." - you're injecting an argument that that makes it seem like I or other people believe Chinese people aren't hard workers? I bet no reasonable person would put forward that argument, no reasonable person would think Chinese people are lazy. It sounds more like propaganda/narrative that the CCP would want to perpetuate to try to demonize the "other" - so the Chinese population will think "we" think lesser of them, to cause them to dislike, be angry with, or hate "us."

The majority of reasonable people of Democratic nations only want the best for the Chinese people, and the majority are reasonable - however there are for example the ~74 million Americans who have been mislead, manipulated, by Trump, the captured Republican party and mainstream media that these people watch - to believe Trump was the answer to "Make American Great Again" - except Trump isn't an entrepreneur or a businessman, he's a con artist and a pathological liar, and archetypical narcissist; someone like Andrew Yang, who's an entrepreneur and has been successful, learning through experience and understanding the foundation, math, and exponentials of how policy propagates - is the type of person, along with his holistic-foundational policy proposals, are the polar opposite to Trump; and the slogan play of MATH - "Make America Think Harder" is simply a beautiful refinement and contrast to MAGA.

And seriously - we only want the best for the people of China, and a foundational part of what's best for EVERYONE in the world - to avoid the pitfalls of tyranny and avoid potential scenarios like Uighurs "re-education" camps (genocide by internationally agreed standards) - is freedom of speech.

Happy to continue this discussion or clarify anything.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypersonic weapons changes that. Hypersonic weapons are very difficult to confuse with nuclear weapons. Combine that with cyber warfare and drone/robotic warfare... And it is now possible to have an all out conventional warfare style war again. MAD no longer applies here. MAD was relevant when "destruction" required nuclear weapons. It didn't really mean "you destroy me I destroy you." It meant, you launch nuclear we…

I dont understand. Both ear sides want to win. If loosing side has nuclear weapons, they will use them eith the goal to win. Why would they NOT use it?

There are different degrees to losing a war. The end result of losing a conventional war could be (IMO "would be") much better than the result for that same side if it let loose nukes. A direct war between two nuclear powers need not lead to the use of nuclear weapons. Of course it's only rational to fear such a result.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#155
post #13

The west needs to sanction China. This is violation of China's treaty obligations, it's not just a domestic issue, it's an international law issue, and it should have international consequences.

> The west needs to sanction China. Do you understand that the West mostly sanctions itself when it tries to sanction a country which: 1. Has surreal trade surplus with it. 2. Supports nearly entire consumer spending part of your economy. 3. Provides most of your light industry goods. 4. Buys a big chunk of your debt. This is why I was saying that China can easily do a blunder, after a blunder, and still outmatch the…

We just need leaders in place who understand these systems, the economics, and trust that once investing resources into their own people and nations who are aligned with the same/similar values - with freedom of speech at their core - that they will work hard and generate an ROI for their work; understanding the human heart, mind, will, and exponentials are the key to having this faith - faith perhaps deriving from seeing the good and potential in every being.

You're correct that more than sanctions are necessary, you need to also invest in the infrastructure and production of goods that your society primarily relies on. There's tons of space for innovation and improving efficiencies in this space via automation, vertical and horizontal integration, reducing planned obsolescence, etc. There's an incredible amount of waste in our societies, along with other types of pollution we must address. All this requires is work, which means jobs, and adequate organization and appropriate directing of resources.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not how international obligations work. Most borders were defined at gunpoint but we generally don’t allow for arbitrary redefinition when the loser gets uppity, Crimea aside.

For a long time American policy was also that these "unfair" treaties made by Colonial Powers should go. Roosevelt was very much of that opinion that these treaties should be abbrograted in the aftermath of World War II, and his views did lead to some differences of opinion with Churchill. Infact all other concessions except HK and Macau were returned to Chinese about the end of the war.

For the record Macau was leased freely to Portugal as a trading post in the mid 1500s. Not everything is an unfair imposition.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#157
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can not put a base in a single day. This will be a process which you can not hide from China. You think they'll just swallow it and will not attack Taiwan at the first hint of event? In my opinion it is not a _peaceful_ action but an act of a lunatic who does not give a shit about human lives.

Of course you can't hide it. And of course it's possible they may decide to attack Taiwan if it were attempted. It's also possible that not doing so _guarantees_ an attack by China. It's all a balance of probabilities. One could very well rationally decide the likelihood of China attacking Taiwan decreases by putting a base there. I'm not saying that conclusion is guaranteed correct, or that you should agree with it,…

>"It's also possible that not doing so _guarantees_ an attack by China."

Pissible and _guarantees_ - You can pretty much shorten it to "possible". There is no guarantee in here.

Opening US base will be much closer to guarantee. But this is mute. I think/hope that US/Taiwan are not that stupid and do not start their morning routine by planning what's the best way to provoke war with China.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#158

The situation in HK is depressing, especially when Western corporations and politicians seem to admire the CCP more than democratic activists. What can an individual do to help Hong Kongers? Any suggestions?

> The situation in HK is depressing, It sure is. HK was my favorite city. Great place. I liked to live in China too, but left when Xi got into power, because it was all too obvious, even 10 years ago, what would happen. The turn to nationlism, xenophobia, and imperialism under Xi is insane. And the lack of reaction to it in the West (with the exception of the Trump administration) is even more insane.

Compared to never been there, it's particularly painful because it's a regression from a fairly just, rather first-world system. As a HKese I had the luxury to spend time on little things that make me happy in my teenage just like all teenagers do. It breaks my heart seeing youngsters standing on the front line shredding blood and tears, for things I took for granted. I really worry about the mental health of this generation.

Although it wasn't too obvious. As you might already know there's movie called Ten Years made in 2015, imagining 2025 HK after CCP erosion on culture, human rights and rule of law. 2017 me thought[0] it was an "exaggeration". Now it's just been upgraded to one of the most prophetic movies.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14776951

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#159
post #37
post #13

The west needs to sanction China. This is violation of China's treaty obligations, it's not just a domestic issue, it's an international law issue, and it should have international consequences.

A century old treaty signed at gunpoint can be dissolved at gunpoint.

China is violating the Sino-British Joint Declaration, signed between the UK and China in 1984. [0]

Not century old. And not at gunpoint.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the point of sanctions to make the offending product so expensive that other options become more viable? They would've to be hard enough to make it more cost effective to create a new production line in another nation over buying the sanctioned goods. Not without consequences for the consumer and political suicide if attempted... but technically possible

> Isn't the point of sanctions to make the offending product so expensive that other options become more viable? The key word here is other options . Are there any? China on other hand has many other options than the US market. They will have no problem redirecting things like household goods, and other light industry products to other markets without impact to its industrial capacity. That's what has happened in 200…

> The key word here is other options. Are there any?

Yes if you ask about them at the right place, like https://www.reddit.com/r/avoidchineseproducts/

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