Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#151

Post by forensic » Fri, May 20, 2011, 6:49 PM UTC

guelo wrote: post #43

forensic wrote: post #14

The "fat is evil" thing that happened in the latter half of the 20th century is going to go down as the biggest scientific fuck up ever. The very people who were given all the authority and trust, and who were supposed to protect human life, actively killed people by pushing carbs as healthy and fats as unhealthy. They directly caused spiking obesity, the #1 medical issue in our society. Repeat after me: The biggest…

Calm down there. It is scientists after all that are informing you of the new evidence.

Not really. It was doctors like Atkins and journalists like Gary Taubes. Huge public support of Atkins forced nutritionists to start studying Atkins.

Nutritionists have been demonizing low carb diets since the 70s.

It is the general public, through anecdote and experience, that has made this discovery mainstream. Dr. Atkins and others made the discovery, but they were never accepted by the scientific community.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#152

Post by forensic » Fri, May 20, 2011, 6:51 PM UTC

beaumartinez wrote: post #24

forensic wrote: post #14

The "fat is evil" thing that happened in the latter half of the 20th century is going to go down as the biggest scientific fuck up ever. The very people who were given all the authority and trust, and who were supposed to protect human life, actively killed people by pushing carbs as healthy and fats as unhealthy. They directly caused spiking obesity, the #1 medical issue in our society. Repeat after me: The biggest…

(I don't want to split hairs, but "carbs" aren't to blame, simple sugars are, especially in sodas, confectionary, et cetera.) > Millions and millions of people have died because they followed the advice of the scientific authorities. Because of a poor diet? Maybe; diet is only one side of this. People who die of heart disease are normally very unfit. As easy as it is to blame the scientific authorities, they should h…

You are still ignorant of the latest research.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#153

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 20, 2011, 6:57 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #47

jpk wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related to your key #1, this[1] talk by Robert Lustig (who's work has seen some exposure on HN in the past) has a pretty good run-down of how some of the carbohydrates are metabolized. Specifically, he points to fructose as the culprit when it comes to obesity. I recommend watching the whole thing, but skip to about 36:00 to see the biochemistry. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

Sigh. A good criticism of Lustigs demonizing fructose: http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-ab... Key takeaway that Lustig ignores - USDA numbers by the way: Total energy intake in 1970 averaged 2172 kcal. By 2007 this hiked up to 2775 kcal, a 603 kcal increase.

[deleted]

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#154

Post by sedachv » Fri, May 20, 2011, 6:58 PM UTC

ohyes wrote: post #99

tokenadult wrote: post #77

What's more radically different between people who are healthy and people who are not is how much they exercise rather than what they eat. There is much more worldwide cultural variation in what people eat, and much more individual variation within each culture, among healthy people than there is variation in the exercise level of healthy people. But seeking to change diet to change health sounds easier than getting…

What compounds this is that 'healthy' is a particularly ill-defined catchall term. If you are, for example, morbidly obese or horribly malnourished, you probably do need to change your diet. If you get winded going up a flight of stairs, or maybe worried about general physical fitness, you probably want exercise. What is our ideal for a healthy person? An underwear model? someone who lives to 93? I don't know.

Tim Ferriss made the assertion in the 4 Hour Body that what should be a benchmark for health is reproductive fitness ("sexyness"). This is tough to measure objectively, but not subjectively. A significant portion of our brain is devoted to processing exactly that (ever notice how you can instantly spot an attractive member of the opposite/preferred sex out of the corner of your eye?).

We use similar criteria for household and farm animals ("shiny coat," musculature, posture and signs of coordination and activity). Back when slavery was widespread, slave traders made their choices the same way.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#155

Post by jodrellblank » Fri, May 20, 2011, 7:15 PM UTC

danssig wrote: post #29

kzaragoza wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can trust them to continue diving into the science of nutrition. The interesting thing about this whole episode is that it serves as a wonderful illustration of the self-correcting nature of the scientific method. Consider what's happened: First, health authorities made observations about diets and various diseases, creating hypotheses along the way. Next, they gathered some data and analyzed it. They drew conclu…

>The interesting thing about this whole episode is that it serves as a wonderful illustration of the self-correcting nature of the scientific method. This is actually not very good PR for science. The wonderful illustration here is that after billions of dollars and millions of lives we realized we were wrong? What system couldn't do that? To me, what this actually illustrates is the mistaken way we use science today…

What system couldn't do that?

Religion, for one. Alternative medicine for another. Any fixed mindset philosophy that has no feedback loop between "reality" and "what it advocates".

You know tomorrow is predicted to be judgement day, right?[1] Do you think that guy/group is going to change his/their philosophy one iota when tomorrow is not judgement day? Even when they've predicted it before and been wrong before?

[1] http://search.google.com/search?q=judgement%20day%20may%2021... and http://www.wecanknow.com/ claims "the date of the rapture of believers will take place on May 21, 2011 [..] Study the proofs that God has so graciously given in His Word showing us that these dates are 100% accurate and beyond dispute.". In a couple of days, find those people and ask about their "100% accurate and beyond dispute" claims.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#156

Post by gojomo » Fri, May 20, 2011, 7:21 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #115

Hawramani wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reasoning in that line shows the classic misunderstanding that has led us here. As Taubes says, saying you get fat because you eat too much doesn't explain anything. Of course you need to eat more calories that you expend to gain weight. But why do people do it, and why didn't they do it before? Taubes says we eat too much because we eat carbs . If people had eaten a carb-free diet since 1970 we wouldn't be seein…

What if we increased carb consumption far above the levels of today (from 43% of our diet to, I dunno, 54%)? Would we be even fatter than we are now? https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnpp.usd... History tells us the answer. In the early part of the 20'th century, we ate nothing but carbs. We weren't fat.

Were the early-20th-century carbs the same carbs as today? (Corn and potatoes aren't the same as sugar-cane and HFCS.)

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#157

Post by NIL8 » Fri, May 20, 2011, 7:39 PM UTC

There's money in carbs and not in fat.

This answer may sound glib, but not if we consider the facts surrounding the issue.

- The propaganda for carbs and against fat has been overwhelming over the years. Most people are not likely to believe anything other than what they've been taught.

- Our economy relies heavily on what we can generally call "the carb industry." If people are being harmed by too many carbs, they'll take medicine (like they're trained to) and that builds another industry. Why would anybody (politicians, industry leaders, corporate science) want to change that?

- Besides, carbs are beautifully packaged, cheap, and readily available. Why would anyone want to re-think that?

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#158

Post by cpeterso » Fri, May 20, 2011, 7:43 PM UTC

MikeCapone wrote: post #106

narrator wrote: post #105

A more subtle reason for the pro-carb bias is it provides justification for vegetarianism since most vegetarian diets are much higher in carbs than fat. Vegetarians, animal rights advocates, and people who may eat meat but nevertheless are against promoting it because of their concern for the environment want to believe that their more moral diet is also healthier. The easy way to do that is by lending their confirma…

I'm afraid this might be true, and I say this as someone who was a vegetarian for almost 3 years partly for environmental and moral reasons. I started eating meat again after reading Gary Taubes' "Good Calories, Bad Calories". I still agree that it's better for the environment and for the animals to have a vegetarian diet, but I couldn't find a way to stick to it without eating way more carbs than I felt was good for…

How did you reintroduce meat into your vegetarian diet? Was it a gradual process? Do you eat the same meat diet (dishes and frequency) as before you were a vegetarian?

I've been a (ovo-lacto) vegetarian for 12 years for the reasons you describe. After reading Gary Taubes, I am conflicted. Taubes has little advice for vegetarians or vegans except "eat some cheese and eggs".

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#159

Post by cpeterso » Fri, May 20, 2011, 7:46 PM UTC

jinushaun wrote: post #52

guelo wrote: post #42

I guess I haven't been paying attention but I thought the Atkins diet from a few years ago had been discounted as an unhealthy fad diet. But now I'm reading that it has been scientifically proven to be the healthiest diet. Is that right? Are carb-filled fruits and vegetables supposed to be less healthy than for example fried bacon?

Wrong. The problem is that people think low-carb equals bacon grease and no vegetables. It really just means little to no bread, grains, rice or potatoes. A low carb diet is predominantly fruits and vegetables, but for some reason, people really like to focus on the meat and fat aspect.

> A low carb diet is predominantly fruits and vegetables

Aren't fruits (and fruit juices) verboten for most low-carb diets? Fruit is mostly water and fructose.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#160

Post by terio » Fri, May 20, 2011, 7:53 PM UTC

bproper wrote: post #131

We are predisposed by our Victorian ancestors to assume that anything which gives us great pleasure must also be bad for us. Hence fat is believed to be worse than carbs.

Following that logic, people with different tastes would conclude that carbs are worse than fat.