Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#151

Post by itsoktocry » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 1:58 PM UTC

enriquec wrote: post #109

stuaxo wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as there is a hierarchy, you cannot really have equality, sorry. You make humans more economically equal and you create an even worse situation where human hierarchy is based on family name, connections, genetics or just plain violence and social mobility would be even worse than it is now, where it is dictated by income and wealth. This sounds like a bit of a stretch. Let's try and make people a bit more e…

Why limit Elon Musk - who is arguably ensuring the long-term survivability of our species - for some arbitrary target like absolute equality? Why is a powerful bureaucrat with no money more desirable to you than a rich entrepreneur that had to prove his value before attaining reward? What is wrong with the youth have little-to-no savings and the elderly/about-to-retire having significant wealth and assets?

>who is arguably ensuring the long-term survivability of our species

Do adult humans honestly believe that going to Mars is a reasonable way to "save our species"?

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#152

Post by maxerickson » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 1:59 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #38

solatic wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unequal distribution of rewards (i.e. according to merit) is fine and desirable (as a motivating force). The problem's roots are when the distribution of rewards becomes hereditary , that the children of the wealthy have near-guaranteed access to the best educational and social institutions, have near-guaranteed access to startup capital (i.e. from their parents), are usually provided with necessities (food, housing,…

Practically the only reason I accumulate any resources or am productive at all is for the benefit of my child. I wouldn't think twice about committing violence against anyone who tried to stop me.

The consultants are revolting!

I guess it's good that you are honest with yourself about it though, that's better than constructing some elaborate justification around some clearly insufficient core "principles".

Of course, the idea that taxation is theft and a fence isn't doesn't hold.

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#153

Post by enriquec » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 2:00 PM UTC

anothernewdude wrote: post #137

enriquec wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why limit Elon Musk - who is arguably ensuring the long-term survivability of our species - for some arbitrary target like absolute equality? Why is a powerful bureaucrat with no money more desirable to you than a rich entrepreneur that had to prove his value before attaining reward? What is wrong with the youth have little-to-no savings and the elderly/about-to-retire having significant wealth and assets?

Because he's as much of a nutcase as you are. > Why is a powerful bureaucrat with no money more desirable to you than a rich entrepreneur that had to prove his value before attaining reward? Because the "value" they have proven is so often criminal and fraudulent in nature - best case scenario it's down to luck. The world is not even close to the meritocracy you think it is.

How am I a nutcase? For what its worth, I'm successful and happy so I don't take offense. Lions don't worry about sheep.

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#154

Post by rtx » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 2:01 PM UTC

mehphp wrote: post #117

lazyjones wrote: post #76

These conclusions apply to the third world, not the rest of us. Here in Europe for example, anyone can study and become an entrepreneur (I did it, with pretty much 0 wealth in the family).

Does this mean that poverty, in the first world at least, is a solved problem and being poor is a choice for those remaining in poverty?

Many people don't like to work hard, and that's alight.

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#155

Post by enriquec » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 2:03 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #151

enriquec wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why limit Elon Musk - who is arguably ensuring the long-term survivability of our species - for some arbitrary target like absolute equality? Why is a powerful bureaucrat with no money more desirable to you than a rich entrepreneur that had to prove his value before attaining reward? What is wrong with the youth have little-to-no savings and the elderly/about-to-retire having significant wealth and assets?

> who is arguably ensuring the long-term survivability of our species Do adult humans honestly believe that going to Mars is a reasonable way to "save our species"?

Do you have another suggestion? Do you not see any value in developing the technology necessary to get to Mars - in order to travel elsewhere?

And to answer your question, yes. Successful, accomplished, professional, adult scientists - like myself and my friends - do honestly believe that.

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#156

Post by itsoktocry » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 2:03 PM UTC

waihtis wrote: post #142

UncleMeat wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Elon Musk doing that? Or the engineers who work for him?

Elon Musk carried a lot of the financial risk to get the company into the position it is in now. The engineers did not. Funny how risk is always completely neglected in these "entrepreneur bad, engineers good" narratives.

Ah yeah, much like the bankers of the world, the money-men always claim they are the ones "at risk" with their billions of dollars.

Elon Musk is the second richest person in the world and has raised tens of billions of dollars of outside money to fund his companies. You talk like he's footing the bill; he put less than $10 million into Tesla. It was a brilliant decision, but hardly "risky".

>The engineers did not.

So the engineers who went to work for a project that may not have panned out were taking no risk huh.

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#157

Post by not_knuth » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 2:04 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #135

not_knuth wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in the same boat as you. While it is very normal for parents to be defensive, I found the comment a bit unnecessarily aggressive without an immenent threat (heck, we're on some comment section on the internet here, not a dome in hunger games battling for survival). But then again, I have not had children of my own, so I can't relate to the need to defend my offspring. And from friends I know that parenting is re…

I'm having a great day. We don't share common morals or goals. I didn't initiate the violent language, I only responded in kind.

It seems we indeed do not share morals. I thought I was merely offering a humane/plausible excuse.

Perhaps it's just your laconic phrasing, but I can not stop reading your replies in Arnold Schwarzenegger's voice. Maybe I would see them in a different light if I read them with Wall-E's voice.

Best of luck to your child.

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#158

Post by bonoboTP » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 2:04 PM UTC

MarkMc wrote: post #148

Here's interesting observation by by Nobel prize-winners Abhijit Banerjee, Esther Duflo: "We have already seen, in the previous chapter, another example of people who had lucrative opportunities to save but did not use them: the fruit vendors from Chennai, who borrowed about 1,000 rupees ($45.75 USD PPP) each morning at the rate of 4.69 percent per day. Suppose that the vendors decided to drink two fewer cups of tea…

Two complicating aspects I just randomly thought up:

- the money lending business may not like the fact that their clients are becoming self sufficient and may increase the interest rate to punish such attempts

- crabs in a bucket phenomenon. Not every culture is like the US. In many places it's considered a bad thing to stick out from your environment, family, neighborhood etc. and in poverty you need the goodwill of those people. If you go the risky route, people may hate you, envy you, think you are crazy, selfish, etc.

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#159

Post by legulere » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 2:06 PM UTC

enriquec wrote: post #109

stuaxo wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as there is a hierarchy, you cannot really have equality, sorry. You make humans more economically equal and you create an even worse situation where human hierarchy is based on family name, connections, genetics or just plain violence and social mobility would be even worse than it is now, where it is dictated by income and wealth. This sounds like a bit of a stretch. Let's try and make people a bit more e…

Why limit Elon Musk - who is arguably ensuring the long-term survivability of our species - for some arbitrary target like absolute equality? Why is a powerful bureaucrat with no money more desirable to you than a rich entrepreneur that had to prove his value before attaining reward? What is wrong with the youth have little-to-no savings and the elderly/about-to-retire having significant wealth and assets?

> Why is a powerful bureaucrat with no money more desirable to you than a rich entrepreneur that had to prove his value before attaining reward?

Because the bureaucrat had to prove their merit among the whole population while the rich entrepreneur just had to prove their merit among other kids that were privileged enough. Just think of Bill Gates that went to probably the only school that had a computer in the world.

In ancient China they even went so far to castrate bureaucrats to prevent cross-generational cronyism.

> Why limit Elon Musk

Because he is using cool goals like travelling to mars to motivate his workers to work themselves to exhaustion while ignoring safety measures? He acts exactly like capitalists of the industrial age. The difference is that his workers do not lack money for sustenance, but a purpose in life.

Re: Evidence on Poverty Traps from Rural Bangladesh [pdf]

#160

Post by itsoktocry » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 2:08 PM UTC

enriquec wrote: post #153

anothernewdude wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because he's as much of a nutcase as you are. > Why is a powerful bureaucrat with no money more desirable to you than a rich entrepreneur that had to prove his value before attaining reward? Because the "value" they have proven is so often criminal and fraudulent in nature - best case scenario it's down to luck. The world is not even close to the meritocracy you think it is.

How am I a nutcase? For what its worth, I'm successful and happy so I don't take offense. Lions don't worry about sheep.

>I'm successful

Yes, as you've told us in a few comments.