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Trading Time for Money

nicolasbouliane.com

151–159 of 159 posts

Re: Trading Time for Money

#151

Analyses like this just make me think Basic Income will radically shake up civilization more than most people realize. In particular, it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money. This reason alone may explain some of the hostility toward implementing even a rudimentary form of UBI. Some of the most rewarding human experiences have zero financial value and subsequently are dismisse…

>Some of the most rewarding human experiences have zero financial value and subsequently are dismissed or ignored as "irrelevant" by a significant amount of people. It would be fantastic if we evaluated the worth of an activity on its beauty, meaning, or another hundred adjectives other than how much money we're losing by doing it. If you like birdwatching , awesome, but where ppl object is having to pay for your hob…

Let’s make a deal then. You pay for my birdwatching and I yield my claim to the commons for your private use. You may pollute my air, claim my land, hog my radio spectrum and utilize whatever else of our commons we have fair and equal right to, as long as you pay me for the privilege to call it yours.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#152

Analyses like this just make me think Basic Income will radically shake up civilization more than most people realize. In particular, it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money. This reason alone may explain some of the hostility toward implementing even a rudimentary form of UBI. Some of the most rewarding human experiences have zero financial value and subsequently are dismisse…

Given the current modern monetary theory, how does UBI overcome issue of inflation?

Re: Trading Time for Money

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you’ve quite understood my comment. I am saying that if a significant portion of the population becomes able to survive without needing a job, the overall culture will shift and things that aren’t immediately lucrative will become more popular. Many of these things are fundamentally important but are brushed aside because they fulfill no role in an economically-oriented society.

Someone has to produce the goods that we all need. If "a significant portion of the population" is off doing leisure activities how would we survive? What about game theory in that situation, tit-for-tat prisoners dilemma? Why should I produce when almost all of it will get taken as tax to support the folks not working? Am I not better off sucking the UBI tit?

>Someone has to produce the goods that we all need. If "a significant portion of the population" is off doing leisure activities how would we survive?

We already live in a version of this world, minus the leisure. An enormous portion of economic activity is redistributive, shifting wealth from one person to another but not creating it.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#154

So roughly, the author is saying something like: if ( outsourcing_cost * alpha > opportunity_cost ) { outsource(); } and discusses how that alpha should be calculated. The author also mentions some side benefits of doing some tasks and getting better at them. Does HN have any thoughts about living a smaller life by doing fewer things and having more time to just live and enjoy life? If spending time figuring out how…

>If spending time figuring out how to optimize money/time in more complicated ways could produce a more efficient path, wouldn’t such knowledge spread quickly and become common knowledge?

Willpower and a natural inclination are the key elements here. It's common knowledge that smoking is bad for you, but that doesn't mean that it will be the main force behind people's choices to smoke or not. This applies to almost every other aspect you could think of that requires some degree of effort or interest.

An example of a non-obvious life hack would be Anki. It works exactly as intended, meaning that it makes remembering things far easier than before. But the catch is that you have to do the cards everyday. Therefore only a minority will actually use it. There is no free lunch.

You can generally try to optimize your life, but this sort of Less Wrong style ideology inevitably butts up against some awkward truths about existence, mainly that it has a free-form and serendipitous side to it that can't be gamed so easily or by reason alone. You can't power your way to an interesting life just by the mechanical application of hacks as it requires some luck, some feeling for things, and some intuition. Even if you do manage to attain an artful way of living that exploits your personal circumstances really smoothly, you are not safe from a change in your mindset or any aspect of the house of cards that will suddenly make it all crash down.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but you ARE handed everything that you have, the idea that you ,,earned it,, is an illusion based on ignoring all the good fortune and gifts which have been rained on you, just like on me. otherwise you wouldn,t be in the position to comment on this board.

You don't know me and there is no way you infer that about me from the 3-4 online message exchanges we have had in this thread. And then you seem to go all in and level the same baseless accusation about everyone(?) on this planet. That is pretty egotistical don't you think? Perhaps you should try for some humility and perspective before you start demanding that everyone should switch to your values and distorted eth…

but I do know you...

you were handed knowledge and opportunity early in your life. you were gifted opportunity to compute and to learn how to program, and probably some priceless mentorship along the way.

from that, with your own hard work and perserverence, standing on the shoulders of giants, you built yourself a nice little career, and now make a good living putting digital cogs together.

based on a limited viewpoint of a 1x1 gameboard square, ignoring the bigger picture, like a child who just learned to put the A block on top of the B block, you cry out, "all by myself! it was all me!"

and, of course, ignoring all the other contributions to the picture, that statement true.

but from the perspective of someone who grew up without any of those opportunities, without someone else to provide the building and the carpet, and the A and B blocks themselves, it would seem privileged and ignorant of others' lack of opportunity.

of course, maybe i'm just projecting? i've certainly been there.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#156
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea behind outsourcing is that you can spend additional hours doing paid work There's a whole section of the article that argues that this is not possible. You can't scale your income up and down on a whim. > Of course, it also assumes that people can choose exactly how many hours they work at their regular hourly rate, which isn't usually the case, but that's a separate quibble. It doesn't. There's a whole se…

Right, yes. My point though is that for this kind of value of time calculation to make any sense, you need to assume the amount of work for money someone can do is variable. Otherwise the amount you earn at work is essentially irrelevant when you're looking at the opportunity cost of spending time on something. So then if you are going to look at your net hourly earnings at work, I don't see how it makes any sense to…

That's a whole section of the article

Re: Trading Time for Money

#157
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that a lot of valuable work is incorrectly classified as "doing nothing" in the monetary economy. For example caring for people who need caring for (elderly, children, disabled) is essential work that is mostly done for free. This is a lot of work collectively. In a system that properly values essential work it would be paid, but it isn't paid because those needing care cannot pay for it, and other peopl…

Where you are getting population level statistics that show beyond doubt that most people if they did not have to work to survive then they would be spending their time on "caring" for other people and on similar altruistic endeavours?

I wrote about the care work people are already doing in the current system without UBI.

Not some altruism they would start doing in a hypothetical system.

It's already being done in large quantities, often in addition to having to work to survive. My argument is that since people already do a large amount of unpaid work (in addition to a paid job often), they won't stop doing it on UBI.

That you feel the need to put care work in scare quotes says to me that you probably live in something of a filter bubble about this, because when I think about this issue with regard to the people I know or have met over the years, it seems to be obviously a very large number of people.

However, since you asked for statistics, here are some reports:

> https://www.nice.org.uk/news/article/unpaid-carers-need-more...

> Approximately 6.5 million carers in the UK are unpaid with 3 million balancing work with caring responsibilities.

> It’s estimated that unpaid care saves the UK £132 billion a year in care costs but a recent report by Carers UK found that more than two thirds of carers are using their own income and savings to cover the cost of care and two in five say they struggle to make ends meet.

That's 6.5M out of approximately 40M working age population. I can say from experience and familiarity with the field that it's not trivial amounts of time and labour either. If it were paid, it would be a significant second job.

Those figures are pre-Covid. Since the start of the pandemic they have increased:

> https://www.carersweek.org/images/CW%202020%20Research%20Rep...

> There are an estimated 13.6 million unpaid carers in the UK today. Most of these unpaid carers, 9.1 million, were already caring before the coronavirus outbreak. A staggering 4.5 million people have started providing unpaid care since the outbreak. This represents nearly a 50% increase in the number of unpaid carers since the crisis began.

> An estimated 26% of the UK adult population is providing unpaid care to an older, disabled or ill relative or friend – that is equivalent to one in four adults.

The above figures refer only to caring for the ill, disabled and elderly (generally called "carers").

It does not count caring for children which is, of course, also unpaid but valuable work that presumably would continue in a UBI system and is also done by a large number of people.

Based on the above I estimate (very crudely) that the number of people engaged in significant time performing unpaid but valuable labour in the form of care for children, ill, disabled or elderly people is on the order of 30-50% of the adult working-age population in the UK.

I would expect them all to continue doing so under UBI... And the ones who are currently conflicted by insufficient time to do both a paid job and sufficient care work for the perceived needs (there are many people in this tight spot) would, of course, increase the latter form of labour under UBI.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#158
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it will help divorce this ubiquitous cultural association between time and money I think this is naïve at best, and horribly misguided at worst. Time is money is not just a saying. The fundamental currency, the one thing that ever person needs and wants, is time. That's why it's so tightly coupled with other valuable things such as money. Time and money are essentially the same thing, though of course time is less f…

Time and money are hardly the same thing. One can easily be stripped away from you in any number of schemes, the other is always with you for as long as you live.

You might want to ask someone imprisoned for a long time about that.

Re: Trading Time for Money

#159
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Groceries in most of Europe are much higher quality for a lower price than in the US

Is this true in urban areas too? When I last visited prices seemed higher than the Midwestern US by at least 30%

Europe isn't one country so it depends on where you visited.
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