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Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

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Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#151

Post by zdragnar »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #145
BitwiseFool wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed a trend where toxic people hide behind a veneer of a righteous cause, usually something related to social justice. It's effective and usually short circuits the public's willingness to see the nuance of the issue.

[flagged]

The "right wing racist" bit is very new. It primarily represents the stereotype of an overly entitled, highly strung soccer mom insisting on talking to managers when she doesn't get her way with front-line employees at retail stores.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#152

Post by room500 »

js8 wrote: post #114
pontus wrote: post #99

My god, people need to calm down. I understand that some may be upset about things their employer does and that's well within their rights. If their employer is knowingly engaging in illegal activity then by all means, be a whistle blower and set ultimatums, but this has gone too far. If you have a problem with the motivations of your employer or how it handles various sensitive issues then start preparing for interv…

> I understand that some may be upset about things their employer does and that's well within their rights. It is within their rights, true. But it's not just a question of law, but also ethics. We accept that, in democratic societies, we can freely criticize our government and still stay the citizens. There are good principal and practical reasons to have it so. However, in private companies, for some reason, we don…

Even in government, there are limits. To accomplish any meaningful results, you need to work with others and avoid faux pas

Try being a member of the Democrat (or Republican) party and openly criticize the leaders of the party. You would be immediately ostracized and none of your legislation or ideas would make it through again.

At the core, we are a social species that relies on cooperation. It is critical to have people constantly questioning the herd mentality so we don't run off the cliff. But the whistle-blowing can still be done in a respectful way (unless, of course, it is egregious like breaking laws, moral issues, etc).

In this case, even if you take a critical eye towards Google, they didn't want a paper that they paid for published externally. Tough. If you want free reign, you can't be part of an organization that pays your paycheck every two weeks.

Also note that this does not mean that the paper was not read and reviewed within Google and might have effected some change there. And it could have been published externally if she had taken the review comments into consideration and included some of the ways Google was trying to mitigate the problems - something that would actually be interesting and relevant to the paper

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#153

Post by claydavisss »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #117

Wow, Google's ethical AI group sounds like the most toxic group of individuals I've ever heard of. I'm going to sidestep the debate about whether Gebru was "fired" or she "resigned", because that debate primarily centers on how one defines the words. But clearly she did do this: She sent a letter that made a bunch of (IMO) outrageous demands, outrageous because it essentially attacked other people at the company, and…

Sundar Pichai is a weak leader who has allowed this to fester. Likewise, this anger-mob is just going to continue cashing Google's paychecks anyway. So eventually, the only result will be all the sane people leaving, with Pichai and the Left Mob remaining to passively sneer at each other.

If Pichai would just man up, he'd send an all-hands to the company telling everyone to decide by EOD if they want to be on board at Google or standing in the parking lot chanting.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#154

Post by claydavisss »

GVIrish wrote: post #146
pontus wrote: post #99

My god, people need to calm down. I understand that some may be upset about things their employer does and that's well within their rights. If their employer is knowingly engaging in illegal activity then by all means, be a whistle blower and set ultimatums, but this has gone too far. If you have a problem with the motivations of your employer or how it handles various sensitive issues then start preparing for interv…

People certainly could just quit when they feel their company is not doing the right thing. But people who care about their mission and the company might stay and do something like this because they genuinely want to improve things. Maybe if more employees used their leverage to improve companies from within we could see real progress in work environments and corporate ethics without having to wait on legislation or…

Their "mission" is to find conflict, or lacking that, create it. What is the "mission" otherwise? The entire field of "Ethical AI" is a total joke that serves as nothing but a conduit to inject college-grade identity politics into the work environment. There is literally nothing else to this field. Frankly Google should terminate the entire team.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#155

Post by GVIrish »

free_rms wrote: post #86
fabian2k wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this particular job does require a certain independence to do it properly. If business concerns would override and silence the Ethical AI team, then you might as well not have one in the first place. It would be purely a PR thing, which it well might have been after all. Having someone that is known to speak their mind in such a team does lend it more credibility. But you also can't complain if they then spea…

The paper she was fired over was leaked, though, and it's.. not novel. It's the same things everyone else has been saying for years (global warming bad, also don't build a racist speech reproducer), and Google wanted her to reference their efforts to mitigate those things in addition to repeating yet again that they can happen. Self-serving? Sure, but not really censorship and honestly would make the paper better to…

But Google didn't ask her to add the references, they demanded she retract the paper. In the meeting when they demanded the retraction they refused to even explain why.

If those references to recent developments were the real issue, it seems very odd that Google responded that way.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#156

Post by js8 »

jjcon wrote: post #129
js8 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand that some may be upset about things their employer does and that's well within their rights. It is within their rights, true. But it's not just a question of law, but also ethics. We accept that, in democratic societies, we can freely criticize our government and still stay the citizens. There are good principal and practical reasons to have it so. However, in private companies, for some reason, we don…

I think the primary reason for this is because people (generally speaking) in democratic societies share control of their government (for the people by the people etc). This is not true of company->employee relationships. It is assumed that if you join a company you share their values and if you no longer share their values the barrier to leave and join another is quite low. People have different values and that is f…

> It is assumed that if you join a company you share their values

More precisely, it is assumed that you share the values of the owners.

> Move on, join up and use your time to help lift values you hold, don’t just spend all your time tearing down others. Respect the fact that others can have values different than your own.

I see a big problem with this argument, would you say that to e.g. Belarussian freedom of speech activists? That hey, they should just respect their government has different values, and they can move elsewhere.

You're talking about "others", but you really mean "people in charge". I think it's morally wrong to exclude large majority of people, who are not in charge, from the discussion what should be the values of the collective they are part of.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#157

Post by fatbird »

xenihn wrote: post #149
fatbird wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only evidence of toxicity was an email she sent after being forced to retract a paper that she wouldn't have to retract under proper academic circumstances, based on feedback they weren't even going to provide to her. That's not toxic, that's anger. One angry incident, justified or not, does not make the case for firing a "toxic" employee.

>The only evidence of toxicity was an email she sent after being forced to retract a paper that she wouldn't have to retract under proper academic circumstances, based on feedback they weren't even going to provide to her. What about the paper trail she left on Twitter?

That happened after she was fired. You can't cite that behaviour as a reason for firing her. Violates causality.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#158

Post by zug_zug »

pontus wrote: post #99

My god, people need to calm down. I understand that some may be upset about things their employer does and that's well within their rights. If their employer is knowingly engaging in illegal activity then by all means, be a whistle blower and set ultimatums, but this has gone too far. If you have a problem with the motivations of your employer or how it handles various sensitive issues then start preparing for interv…

>> For example, I don't hear a lot about the walkouts at Exxon or at Raytheon.

Maybe the world would be a better place if we did. At least "My god, people need to calm down." isn't really an argument.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#159

Post by datavirtue »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #117

Wow, Google's ethical AI group sounds like the most toxic group of individuals I've ever heard of. I'm going to sidestep the debate about whether Gebru was "fired" or she "resigned", because that debate primarily centers on how one defines the words. But clearly she did do this: She sent a letter that made a bunch of (IMO) outrageous demands, outrageous because it essentially attacked other people at the company, and…

Reminds me of the recent post about how not to be high-maintenance, directed at wikipedia editors. The demands and fits seem to be a thing plaguing the over-educated. I get mad when I don't have anything to do at work either.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#160

Post by zug_zug »

GVIrish wrote: post #146
pontus wrote: post #99

My god, people need to calm down. I understand that some may be upset about things their employer does and that's well within their rights. If their employer is knowingly engaging in illegal activity then by all means, be a whistle blower and set ultimatums, but this has gone too far. If you have a problem with the motivations of your employer or how it handles various sensitive issues then start preparing for interv…

People certainly could just quit when they feel their company is not doing the right thing. But people who care about their mission and the company might stay and do something like this because they genuinely want to improve things. Maybe if more employees used their leverage to improve companies from within we could see real progress in work environments and corporate ethics without having to wait on legislation or…

Agreed. Sometimes we like to pretend that "corporations" are entities themselves, but the truth is they are just groups of people. The people have all the power, and all the accountability.
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