Live data from Hacker News

Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?

ourworldindata.org

151–160 of 205 posts

Re: Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For healthcare, you can probably segment America a little more generously into insured vs uninsured. If you are insured in America, your healthcare is reasonably good. Lower quality plans may have more restrictive networks or higher deductibles and maximums, but these are manageable and neither are truly barriers to care.

I would rather be uninsured and take my chances than work a low waged job and pay for Obamacare. $500/month for a single person, highest deductible plan is ludicrous. Thats fucking 80-90% rent for many people where I live...if not 100%+.

Where are you? Here in Maryland gold level plan for a single person age 36 making $35,000 a year is about $250/month, with $1,750 deductible. In France or Germany, you’d pay about 10% of your income in health insurance tax, so this is quite comparable.

Re: Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?

#152
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would rather be uninsured and take my chances So you won't seek medical treatment at a hospital if you get injured or become severely ill? Or do you plan to go to the hospital and pay out of pocket? Or, like some other voluntarily uninsured people, will you ask for medical treatment and then just not pay? > than work a low waged job and pay for Obamacare. Why would a "low waged" job be a requirement, unless that'…

I would absolutely do the same if I worked a low wage job. Despite our messed up insurance situation, US laws regarding access to emergency care and bankruptcy are very progressive. Someone making $15/hr is likely does not have any assets that would be surrendered in chapter 7 bankruptcy. A lot of people would gladly crater their credit score for a few years to delete an $80,000 bill. Plenty of people crater their cr…

You don’t even need to declare bankruptcy. Most hospitals will just write it off if you talk to them and work it out.

Re: Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other first world nations spend half of what we do, and they have better outcomes and quality of care[1]. They are able to insure all of their citizens with it while the US doesn't. [1] https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality...

Well, the US has better outcomes for employed, insured and non-overweight folks; dramatically lower wait times, better cancer survival rates and less competition for care. Expense is also a nonissue on employer insurance. Unfortunately the US aggregate outcomes are dragged heavily down by an unhealthy population and high barriers to care for the uninsured.

> dramatically lower wait times, better cancer survival rates and less competition for care. Expense is also a nonissue on employer insurance.

Do you have a source for those statements?

Re: Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?

#154
post #30

Wow, the difference between the US and Canada is a surprise, in particular the opioid overdoses and road accidents. I am a US->Canada transplant, and the cultural and economic differences here just don’t seem that stark. Yes, there is universal health care, obviously…but there is definitely not an abundance of easily available mental health care here, especially outside the major metro areas. And the health care in t…

The US has around 9x the population of Canada.

Re: Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?

#155

For some reason, I have a PhD in Health Policy and clinical practice, so, I'm inclined to look at the healthcare system when thinking about this question. IMO it's simple (and this is of course a common view): healthcare in the United States is a failed market. It's not about free market fundamentalism vs socialism, it's just that in this case, this market is totally broken. Costs are completely out of control, and a…

> Socialized medicine, it seems, certainly won't fly in this country. But socialized insurance, "Medicare for all"?

The same endless propaganda and sloganeering brought to bear against socialized medicine in every medium and from every mainstream politician to make us think that it's obviously an impossibility in the US (because reasons), is used against Medicare for all. The possibility of changing US healthcare has never had a relationship with any potential improvement in health outcomes or lowering of costs - the chance for any new plan relies on how well it preserves the profits of an industry that consumes twice the proportion of GDP here as it does in any other country.

One of the reasons M4A is criticized has been that it doesn't directly lower anything except administrative overhead (which is massive, but trivial in comparison to the difference between US health care costs and the costs of the civilized world, which would have kept the US in budget surpluses year after year.) It relies on government to put pressure on prices. As the industry's only customer, it would obviously have the leverage, but with most individual politicians being funded by the industry, there's no expectation that it would suddenly have the will. M4A is criticized for not being socialized medicine (i.e. an NHS-like program) by interests who are also against socialized medicine.

The reason Obama passed ACA is because it preserved industry profits, stalled the growth in the rise of healthcare costs, and would hopefully delay the next mass challenge to the status quo. At the beginning of the 2020 election cycle, popular pressure led to virtually all of the early Democratic primary lineup to feign support for M4A, and by the end of the cycle it wasn't even in the platform as an aspirational goal, despite the VP-elect owing her entire initial media presence from her (later-reversed) support of Sanders' bill.

Getting M4A passed will likely be as difficult as getting socialized medicine passed, and would require immense and focused public pressure. We had the most popular candidate in the country run on it as a central issue twice, and during the second time, a new virus changed everyone's daily lives in the middle of the election. Still, through the media, it became a referendum on the personality of a reality show host, Russian spies, and secret pedophile networks. Rational healthcare policy has no hope.

Re: Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?

#156

There really are two Americas - wealthy america and the rest of america. I'll bet if you split America into two sets of counties, the graph would be much different -- one would be a super-outlier and the other a super-laggard. I know this personally, as I've spent 21yrs of my life in one half, and another 20 in the other half. I've also lived overseas for several years, and they also have stratas, but much less prono…

But even that isn't even true. The US system doesn't even benefit the wealthy. For profit health care means a lot of over-treatment which causes several problems in US health care which kills people: - Something like 2x as much surgery done in the US than in other countries, because it is profitable, not because it is needed. So perfectly health people are cut open, because they got a good insurance which can pay for…

>The US system doesn't even benefit the wealthy.

That's a ridiculous statement, it benefits the wealthy massively. We can argue over whether or not these benefits would be even more massive without over-treatment, but there is no doubt about the overall benefits to the wealthy.

>A Harvard analysis of 1.4 billion Internal Revenue Service records on income and life expectancy that showed staggering differences in life expectancy between the richest and poorest also found evidence that low-income residents in wealthy areas, such as New York City and San Francisco, have life expectancies significantly longer than those in poorer regions.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2016/04/for-life-expe...

Re: Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?

#157

Just like @TuringNYC,I spent the early part of my life in the lower half of socio-economic ladder. With a bit of luck (and yes, work), I extracted myself from this group. I'm not rich, but I have zero debt. I own a house, multiple vehicles, and an 4 season expedition camper - free and clear. I have a rewarding and unusual career. By contrast, the entirety of my close and extended family lives in poverty. Bankruptcy,…

I don't agree that "access to healthcare, decent work, and basic housing" would have changed the outcome of a "lethal encounter with police after speeding". Doing that in a Bugatti Veyron is still lethal.

Re: Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?

#158
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he is saying that for many people it's just too much money. And that if they would be denied care, then so be it. This is where it gets uncomfortable, isn't it? That their lives are so miserable, that they would gladly trade away years and years of expected lifespan for higher quality of life.

It’s illegal to turn anyone down in the ER for their ability to pay (at most hospitals). If you show up with an emergency, you will get treated, and the bill comes afterwards. Now, you’re definitely not going to get a luxury treatment, but they will patch you up so you’re not dying. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_... It isn’t the way we should want this to work, but it is certainly someth…

The ER isn't going to offer you cancer treatment, pay for costly prescriptions or provide the medical care, routine and otherwise, that is often required to live a long life.

Re: Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?

#159
It’s interesting to break this down by state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ.... As a benchmark, life expectancy in Germany is about 81 years, while Sweden is a bit over 82. In Minnesota, it’s 80.9, which isn’t far off. New York is over 81, Massachusetts is 80.5. Even less wealthy states like Arizona, North Dakota, and Utah are at 79.9.

It’s also interesting to break this down by ethnicity. Asians in the US are longer lived than people in rich Asian countries like Japan. Asians in California and New York have life expectancies over 87, even though they have slightly higher than average rates of lacking health insurance.

Re: Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but that quip doesn't work when we're comparing the median. The US does have an absolutely nosebleed wealthy 0.1%, yes, but if you split the population exactly in half, and pick the bloke in the middle, he has really rather a lot of assets, relative to most anywhere else. "The richest poor country in the world" might be closer to it. As the rest of the threads under this post will reveal, we mostly agree that som…

But at middle income in the US you don’t get the healthcare or vacations that a lower 25% gets in any Western European country. It’s hard enough when you’re top 10%.

Vacations, absolutely.

But healthcare? 50th percentile US healthcare is pretty good. It's 25th and under who get shafted.

Post reply on HN