No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This • Hacker News Board

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#151

Post by kome » Mon, Nov 09, 2020, 8:21 AM UTC

Fordec wrote: post #52

I've been noticing more push back against the open source bargain lately. Years ago software was fully build on the backs of a multitude of giants within their niche domain. But for a while now large companies have been adopting a model of taking from open source contributions and raking in billions. The original social bargain of "pay it on" has been broken by the Bezos of the world raking in billions. And yes, as o…

"I've been noticing more push back against the open source bargain lately."

it's open source vs. free software

open source = free labor for private profits.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#152

Post by lvoudour » Mon, Nov 09, 2020, 8:21 AM UTC

ganafagol wrote: post #32

echelon wrote: post #21

Seriously. What's the point of open source if companies just steal it, build billion dollar industries on top, and then lock everything down? Apple is telling us we can't run our own software on their goddamned devices, yet they built their empire on open source. Look at Facebook, Google, Amazon. They've extracted all the blood they can and given us back scraps. AWS is repackaged software you pay more for. Yes, it's…

I agree with your sentiment, but this is not the right reaction. It won't improve anything. What's the point of open source if companies just steal it, build billion dollar industries on top, and then lock everything down? You are free to adjust the license to prevent this. But then tomorrow everybody comes and rants about that the GPL is too restrictive. That's the price we pay for this. It's the license that keeps…

I can't blame the authors for the choice permissive licenses. Maybe they were idealistic and starry-eyed, maybe they never thought their project would catch up, maybe they were naive victims of propaganda or maybe they had ulterior motives, who knows. I don't blame the companies that take advantage of it, they are profit-seeking entities - if they see an opportunity for profit they'll take it, morality be damned.

I blame those that justify and help propagate this behavior, justifying abusers of free labor arguing that we wouldn't have all these nice products that make our lives easier. Yes we would, if there's a market for them we would - only now people would either get paid to create them or the companies would be forced to give back to the community just like they benefited from it.

So, authors, if you are sick and tired of your good Samaritan efforts being abused, switch to GPL and let them rant

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#153

Post by berdario » Mon, Nov 09, 2020, 8:21 AM UTC

stiray wrote: post #70

echelon wrote: post #21

Seriously. What's the point of open source if companies just steal it, build billion dollar industries on top, and then lock everything down? Apple is telling us we can't run our own software on their goddamned devices, yet they built their empire on open source. Look at Facebook, Google, Amazon. They've extracted all the blood they can and given us back scraps. AWS is repackaged software you pay more for. Yes, it's…

Well this somehow reflects what I am seeing for last 20 years. Hobby or just passion of open source is fueling the industry to forge massive profits while on other side provide peanuts for authors, far less than if they were their employees (or lets rather say: 0). I was working on multiple close source projects for different companies that were avoiding anything GPL, searching for permissive replacements and in neve…

> Actually even GPL is not a protection here, with sources given away they become almost a manual how to re-implement it which is far simpler than making it from scratch (oh and yes, people are doing that without copy pasting).

That's quite a gamble, since it falls foul of the Clean Room Implementation criteria

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

Big companies (faang) won't touch that approach with a 10 meters pole, but obviously I'm not surprised that smaller actors might have a more cavalier attitude to copyright law.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#154

Post by chinathrow » Mon, Nov 09, 2020, 8:22 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #21

Seriously. What's the point of open source if companies just steal it, build billion dollar industries on top, and then lock everything down? Apple is telling us we can't run our own software on their goddamned devices, yet they built their empire on open source. Look at Facebook, Google, Amazon. They've extracted all the blood they can and given us back scraps. AWS is repackaged software you pay more for. Yes, it's…

> Apple is telling us we can't run our own software on their goddamned devices, yet they built their empire on open source.

Stop. Buying. Their. Shit.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#155

Post by warent » Mon, Nov 09, 2020, 8:23 AM UTC

cercatrova wrote: post #132

3pt14159 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want GPL. I want a license that prevents unpaid use by any entity that has any stakeholder worth more than a billion USD. That's it. That's all I want. MIT-Billionaires. Want to take funding from A16Z? That's a million a year for the license or something that maybe scales with a market cap just to level the playing field between a funded startup and Apple Computers. Don't get me wrong, I love Apple, but I don…

That's just a proprietary license, just write the license like that if you want as I don't see how anything is stopping you from creating or using such a license. Just don't make the assumption that it's open source, it's just another form of a proprietary license like much of the paid software currently present. However, don't complain later on that you can't modify software or run it on your own device like you can…

When I worked at Google I heard AGPL called the "fuck google license" for this reason. There do exist licenses which restrict certain business models, but I agree there could probably be even more work around improving it

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#156

Post by creato » Mon, Nov 09, 2020, 8:23 AM UTC

aboringusername wrote: post #59

[this comment was deleted as HN doesn't pay me to contribute to the discussion]

Eh, I don't really buy that these contributions are so huge. What is the replacement cost of tools like this? It's not that high. It actually seems like this kind of software negligibly impacts large businesses, but small businesses and individuals are the ones who really benefit, because even a small replacement cost is significant for them.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#157

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 09, 2020, 8:24 AM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #111

arbitel wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? You opted for Spotify model when you sign up for the service. I am pretty sure you are still free to purchase the music or album in iTunes.

You’re even still free to just go buy the CD and rip it, as odd as it sounds.

[deleted]

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#158

Post by kybernetikos » Mon, Nov 09, 2020, 8:25 AM UTC

cercatrova wrote: post #147

keyle wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does dual licensing works? Got a prime example simple to understand? Asking for a friend...

You offer a copyleft license like AGPL but also offer a paid license for those who don't want to deal with AGPL. Since you as the creator own the copyright, you can license it however you want, including multiple licenses simultaneously.

It's a pattern that works very well - many large companies have standing policies that they can't use copyleft licensed software so they have to get the paid license while those happy with the copyleft social contract get to enjoy and contribute for free.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#159

Post by wichert » Mon, Nov 09, 2020, 8:25 AM UTC

alangibson wrote: post #124

Has anyone ever heard of a service that allows users to attach bounties to issues? So if the open source developer fixes an issue, the developer gets the money offered by the issue reporter. Edit: Answering my own question. https://gitpay.me Doesn't appear to be too popular though: "We paid $2547 USD in bounties " Edit 2: No wonder it's not popular https://github.com/gitpay/website/pull/4

https://www.bountysource.com is one. I have used a few times to sponsor features in Weblate.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#160

Post by thomasz » Mon, Nov 09, 2020, 8:25 AM UTC

keyle wrote: post #119

pjmlp wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what happens when the hipster folks attack GPL and push for MIT like licenses. Had Linus not chosen it for Linux and I bet I would still be using a mix of Solaris, Aix and HP-UX on the server room. Dual licensing is the only true path, it was already so in the shareware days, and it will be back to be the daily reality. Bills have to paid.

How does dual licensing works? Got a prime example simple to understand? Asking for a friend...

You publish under AGPL for free and also under a commercial license for people who do not want to abide to the conditions of the AGPL. See servicestack.net as an example. It seems to work for some people.