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GitHub Warns Users Reposting YouTube-DL They Could Be Banned

torrentfreak.com

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Re: GitHub Warns Users Reposting YouTube-DL They Could Be Banned

#151
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And SMTP mailing lists also ultimately depend on a server that holds the discussion archive and a well-known address for new users to send a "add my email" request. This is not entirely correct. The fault lies in the assumed importance of the list. When I send a kernel patch, I send it to the maintainer, then CC anyone I myself think should be involved, and finally CC the relevant lists (plural). The list acts as f…

>The fault lies in the assumed importance of the list. The "importance" of the mailing list I'm trying to emphasize is the Schelling Point . This is the social discovery aspect you're not addressing. Let's dissect your following example: >When I send a kernel patch, I send it to the maintainer, then CC anyone I myself think should be involved, and finally CC the relevant lists (plural). The list acts as feed for lurk…

Thank you for posting these responses, because this conceptual material around "Schelling Points" and such is incredibly useful - and tends to be a blind spot within the tech community.

(Curiously I've also found that "theory of mind" issues are a real struggle with programming circles - i.e. keeping track of who is aware of what information, or especially, not realizing that just because you, yourself have learned a fact or built a thing, that that info isn't automatically 'pushed' to everyone else.)

Re: GitHub Warns Users Reposting YouTube-DL They Could Be Banned

#152
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to break it to you but distribution of tools related to bypassing DRM/technical protection measures (which is what the RIAA takedown letter actually cited) is illegal in Switzerland and has been since 2006. Indeed, you can be sent to prison for it with a maximum tariff of a year in prison. https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19920251/...

I don't think youtube-dl violates any of the points in the referenced paragraph. EDIT: also note that it states "effective technological measures" ("Umgehung wirksamer technischer Massnahmen" in German); if there is no (effective) protection measure such as in Youtube then the referenced sanctions obviously don't apply (nulla poena sine lege).

Indeed, what is an effective technical protection measure is highly debatable.

The only problem is the only likely chance of definitively finding out in your territory is to have a criminal action against you and see if you win in court.

Re: GitHub Warns Users Reposting YouTube-DL They Could Be Banned

#153
post #92
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, anything about sharing needs centralisation. It's not about JS or whatever language or framework or whatever makes this thing tik. The need for centralisation is an inherit weakness that can't be solved by technology. Sure you can share something among friends, then your centralisation point would be your school or workplace or something too touch heavy to attack and scale, so no one cares.

Block chain, bit torrent, freenet. There are plenty of alternatives that don't require centralization, they are just unpolished because there is no money in them. Again, github only exists because for some reason my generation of developers has decided that js is the only way to use the internet and a pretty interface makes up for not knowing the tools you are using.

Block chain is the only one in your list that is actually decentralized, and it winds up de-facto centralized anyway because it's too slow.

BitTorrent is centralized around the search engines, because a content-addressable storage system can't help with content discovery. You need someone to delete torrents that claim to be video games but are actually ransomeware.

FreeNet is the same as BitTorrent, except that it has built-in support for updatable "freepsites," so the content directories are built into the protocol instead of being run as regular websites. Also, it's anonymous, and kinda slow. It's actually really cool, and horribly underrated, but it doesn't actually solve the schelling point problem. Which freepsite do you trust to have factually correct information?

Re: GitHub Warns Users Reposting YouTube-DL They Could Be Banned

#154
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And SMTP mailing lists also ultimately depend on a server that holds the discussion archive and a well-known address for new users to send a "add my email" request. This is not entirely correct. The fault lies in the assumed importance of the list. When I send a kernel patch, I send it to the maintainer, then CC anyone I myself think should be involved, and finally CC the relevant lists (plural). The list acts as f…

>The fault lies in the assumed importance of the list. The "importance" of the mailing list I'm trying to emphasize is the Schelling Point . This is the social discovery aspect you're not addressing. Let's dissect your following example: >When I send a kernel patch, I send it to the maintainer, then CC anyone I myself think should be involved, and finally CC the relevant lists (plural). The list acts as feed for lurk…

> The "importance" of the mailing list I'm trying to emphasize is the Schelling Point.

You have said Schelling Point enough times for me to have caught that. It is, however, not correct to assign this to the mailing list.

(Also, as a side-note, "focal point" is a more natural, common, and much less awkard term.)

> The list also acts as a Schelling Point to coordinate and consolidate public discussions.

No, it does not. However, it does serve a similar (albeit unimportant) function: providing visibility into ongoing discussions for outsiders, as well as a way for people to join a discussion there were not otherwise introduced into by fellow maintainers.

As a point of reference, during the handful of kernel patches I have gotten upstreamed, the mailing lists themselves served no function. My only interaction with them was to Cc them, as per the guidelines. I did not read them, and all my interaction was with the individuals I To: or Cc:'d directly.

A key thing to note here is that historical discussions on a mailing list are not particularly important in mailing-list style development, as all relevant information should be in the commit message that the discussion culminated in. Likewise, being able to chime in on ongoing discussions are, on its own, not truly that important either—in the worst case, something bad is implemented, and someone upon discovering this starts a new discussion and possibly end up changing it.

In big, or long-standing projects, this happens relatively often, as no individual has the bandwidth (or interest) to keep up with every discussion, and relies mostly on being introduced to discussions when others find them relevant (with git history revealing if they are relevant).

> A mailing list also has a Schelling Point aspect where people can discover email addresses of maintainers.

> How would new people easily discover the maintainers' email addresses without any Schelling Points?

> I disagree. Today, if I notice a bug where youtube-dl is broken, I don't have a canonical place to report the issue.

These are all the same argument, which I will consolidate as: "You cannot discover the target address if the mailing list is down".

This is entirely false: the mailing list does not serve the function of email address discoverability in any form. Instead, the source is the source code itself, in which the target email addresses will be recorded ad nauseam.

Not only will you as holder of the source have the email address of every historic contributor and maintainer (including knowledge of who is relevant to what area), there will usually also be explicit listings available (README, maintainer lists, etc.). External sources might redundantly cover the information as well, but that is non-critical.

To carve it out: You, as a holder of the source code, will always be able to send patches, ask questions, as well as start discussions that others will organically be added to, using no other sources of information than the source, irrespective of mailing list availability, as long as you can send email, and that at least one of the maintainers or contributors of the source can still receive email.

Re: GitHub Warns Users Reposting YouTube-DL They Could Be Banned

#155
post #37

Some example comments in this thread: >"People should move their youbube-dl repositories to servers hosted in Switzerland, " >"Time for a decentralized version control system?" >"The nice thing about fossil" ... those well-meaning suggestions are missing the true difficulty : The community wants a (1) Schelling Point [0] for workflow/issues/discussions/PRs that's also (2) censorship resistant. So far, (1) and (2) con…

> Yes, one can run Gitlab on a self-hosted Raspberry Pi from a home internet connection but that's also not a stable Schelling Point because ISP like Comcast can shut that IP down for DMCA violation

Agreed, however this is where something like a Tor hidden service can help out, assuming something as innocuous as YTDL doesn't draw the ire of three letter agencies, which is very possible given that the FBI investigates copyright infringement.

Re: GitHub Warns Users Reposting YouTube-DL They Could Be Banned

#156
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how this is any different than how it's been for years now. GitHub has been complying with DMCA takedown requests since 2011[1]. What precedent needed to be set here? The RIAA could always do this and GitHub has been complying with it (because they legally have to). 1: https://github.com/github/dmca/

A lot of the things listed on the DMCA repo (if not most of them) are not software that could be used to download content, but the literal content you could obtain using them, such as textbooks, proprietary fonts, and so on. By taking down youtube-dl, Github has opened a window for copyright trolls to speculate about what a repository is used for, and take it down if one of its use cases involves downloading copyrigh…

> youtube-dl is widely used by journalists to preserve uncopyrighted content.

How? Virtually all content is copyrighted; the journalists would need to be restricting themselves to some very narrow topics like "government documents".

Re: GitHub Warns Users Reposting YouTube-DL They Could Be Banned

#157
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you have a stand to sue RIAA if GitHub would have blocked your account? I think you may only have a claim against GH, but I have not read T&C well enough, but I can imagine they would have an entry enabling them to block anyone for any reason. I don't think you could do anything about it.

RIAA made a claim that some content violates their rights under DMCA, which in this hypothetical causes my account to be blocked. I can bring a case under the declaratory judgement act against RIAA, asking a court to decide whether the content is actually infringing. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaratory_judgment I may also have a tortious interference claim, although damages are likely negligible so it's pro…

Well, I would strongly suggest you speak to a lawyer on it, but I would note this strategy only really gives you an American judgement, and the RIAA takedown would still apply in any other territory.

I don't know if Github would host content where they felt there were issues in some countries and not others. Would they geofilter it as they do with Iranian contributors due to US sanctions?

Re: GitHub Warns Users Reposting YouTube-DL They Could Be Banned

#158
post #37

Some example comments in this thread: >"People should move their youbube-dl repositories to servers hosted in Switzerland, " >"Time for a decentralized version control system?" >"The nice thing about fossil" ... those well-meaning suggestions are missing the true difficulty : The community wants a (1) Schelling Point [0] for workflow/issues/discussions/PRs that's also (2) censorship resistant. So far, (1) and (2) con…

> >"Time for a decentralized version control system?" I have to laugh at this one. Git is a decentralized VCS, that was effectively re-centralized (via Github) for the sake of convenience.

Git is not truly decentralized, in the sense that you still need to provide a few specific remote hosts, all of which could disappear due to law enforcement. Instead of one centralized server you've moved to maybe 3-4 centralized servers, which isn't that helpful against the issue at hand, especially if those servers are all within the US, Europe and other law-enforcement-cooperating countries.

In a true decentralized system (e.g. Bittorrent, Bitcoin, etc.) it's practically impossible to delete something, and there would be plenty of accessible copies of data in jurisdictions that are out of reach of any single country's law enforcement, and even out of reach of the original creator to delete, so the original creator's government would not be able to force them to delete it.

Another HN user pointed out Freenet to me in another post, which sounded a lot like the right answer, but I haven't researched it in detail yet and whether it could be easily adapted to work with the git command to actually version repos in a decentralized fashion.

Re: GitHub Warns Users Reposting YouTube-DL They Could Be Banned

#159
post #37

Some example comments in this thread: >"People should move their youbube-dl repositories to servers hosted in Switzerland, " >"Time for a decentralized version control system?" >"The nice thing about fossil" ... those well-meaning suggestions are missing the true difficulty : The community wants a (1) Schelling Point [0] for workflow/issues/discussions/PRs that's also (2) censorship resistant. So far, (1) and (2) con…

[deleted]

Re: GitHub Warns Users Reposting YouTube-DL They Could Be Banned

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> >"Time for a decentralized version control system?" I have to laugh at this one. Git is a decentralized VCS, that was effectively re-centralized (via Github) for the sake of convenience.

I’ve heard this over and over, but I never understood it. How is Git supposed to be decentralized when you push and pull from one place? Would you just set up multiple “origins” with each one pointing to a head maintainer’s computer (and named appropriately)? Because that sounds like a massive pain compared to a centralized system like GitHub. Of course, there is the benefit of a VCS built on the idea of decentraliza…

> Would you just set up multiple “origins” with each one pointing to a head maintainer’s computer (and named appropriately)?

That is exactly how Linus designed it to be used, and how it was used in the early days.

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