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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admittedly, I did weaken a little when my friends told me about their experience at Caviar. It did feel like collective bargaining would have served them well. But yesterday I saw 1280 comments renewing my resolve¹. No, I will not build a big bomb and put it in the hands of a capricious mob. It sort of reminds me of the Sierra Club in SF. I recall it being some sort of enviro org but now all they discuss is housing a…

I looked through several pages of that HN thread for people discussing unions in any context. I found your comment[1] and an anti-union comment by rayiner[2]. The only other comments I found were by union proponents, who celebrated the fact that with unions, it wouldn't matter if someone was an immigrant, or how many immigrants worked in the US, because unions would protect them and native citizens alike and equally[…

A fair objection, but as you well know, it takes work to extract information. Rarely will anyone show you their hand. If you never lift a rock, you never find the snake below, but the snake may exist below nonetheless. And if that rock has had a snake below it before then maybe you don't put your hands underneath to lift the rock.

But you can win me over trivially. Take your union. Add a single immutable tenet: This union will always act to increase legal immigration in America. Now you have a union I will support. After all, if you're pro-immigration, this is merely a formalization of your position. It's a win-win.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> forcing capital to just move software companies into places that are better for business. Surely this would have been the case for movie studios, given that every actor they do business with is a member of SAG-AFTRA. Movie stars can command multi-million dollar contracts with studios with the help of SAG-AFTRA, and the same union protects everyone down to the background actors. Yet studios remain in the US despite…

Engineers are a lot more fungible than movie stars.

And so are background actors and actors you've only ever seen on infomercials, yet they're represented by the same SAG-AFTRA as movie stars.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't join the union. This isn't an option in USA unless you live in a right to work state. The US left pushes hard against right to work, meaning everyone will be forced to join workplace unions when/if they are formed. This includes basically all tech hotspots including California and New York, if your colleagues organizes a union there you will be forced to join. This include this Kickstarter union btw, likely a…

>The US left pushes hard against right to work Because right to work is a union-busting tactic >meaning everyone will be forced to join workplace unions when/if they are formed This is wrong in a number of ways. First off, the formation of a union does not require that all employees instantaneously join it. Second, the union still needs to have an agreement with an employer. So if your workplace doesn't unionize, it…

> Because right to work is a union-busting tactic

No it isn't, right to work exists in the entire EU since EU enforces it. Union participation is still way higher here than in USA. Obviously right to work isn't hurting union participation that much, or unions would be dead over here.

Banning right to work is just there to protect corrupt unions from members being able to leave a corrupt union on their own.

> But if it's members don't want to be part of the union, then why is there a union. Part of that statement doesn't jive with the other.

Because other members wanted to be a part of the union. If 70% wanted the union but 30% were forced to join then those 30% still didn't want the union afterwards, it is that simple.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm eager to believe you're right. Which of your favourite unions has an immutable tenet to be pro-immigration?

Even a cursory glance at contemporary tech movements show that they are largely culturally progressive in nature. Anything from the TWC reveals that they fit in with the general leftist Bay Area political milieu: https://techworkerscoalition.org https://logicmag.io/the-making-of-the-tech-worker-movement/f... https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/13/14264804/palantir-immigra... If you think any of these groups are going to…

Well, I think you'll find from my previous arguments that immutability of the tenet is crucial. If it is an essential part of the belief system, only good can come from stating it to be so.

The hesitance indicates to me a desire to tack into shifting winds: useful, perhaps, to you who only has goals accidentally coincident to mine, but deleterious to me. But that's overly judgmental, perhaps you simply haven't had the time.

The schism is fixable. I will wait, acting only to preserve the trenches as they are. But until then it remains a schism.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your argument relies on the abstract notion that something created can be weaponized against you, then you can extend that argument to any form of human creation or even human self-perpetuation. In which case then your own defense against something being used against you might as well be existential suicide, because in your view the game is so inherently stacked against you, the only winning move is not to play. W…

Well, not anything . Some specific things. For instance, I don't fear a union of Appalachian postal workers. If you go help them unionize, you won't find me standing in the way. If you want to unionize Colorado glass workers, I will cheer you on from here. If the proletariat in the steel mills of Pittsburgh wish to unite, I wish them well. But tech is dominated by rampant xenophobia from the have-nots. They fear the…

I'm a first generation Taiwanese American naturalized citizen. My main experience with the H-1B system is that tech companies play an awful game of locking in workers who may be happier working for a different employer. Others have compared it to indentured servitude, which seems apt. I don't know enough about the system to see how it should be reformed, but I heartily agreed it shouldn't be used to restrict immigration. I usually hate to draw from personal experiences in these conversations, but a debate primarily using emotional appeals drawn from anecdata can only be responded in kind.

I understand that there is an undercurrent of right-wing reaction in Silicon Valley. TechCrunch was breaking the news on neoreactionaries as early as in 2013, and recent political developments have only accelerated right-wing radicalism since then.

That said, by refusing to do something to advance worker power in the fear that it might be used by xenophobes seems like a fundamentally defeatist attitude to take, and rather ignorant of who's who. Xenophobes are not the ones pushing for tech workers to organize.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is forcing you to work a union job. You're free to apply and work wherever you want.

Right, which is why there are basically no unionized software engineering jobs in USA. I'd rather not be forced to change jobs just because you want to join a union. Your love for strict unions means that most people who want a software union isn't allowed to get one since most of their colleagues don't want one.

I mean, by definition, if someone's workplace voted to unionize, most of their colleagues would want one, because it takes a majority vote in an NLRB election to unionize a workplace.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#157
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power Nonsense. Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm and eBay all colluded with each other to keep tech worker compensation below its market rate[1]. Good luck negotiating a group health plan that an employer buys as a single employee. > Given all that I personally think the downsides of unions in tech…

Note that "below market rate" isn't necessarily all that low. You need to look beyond that, because it can still be high enough to make housing unaffordable for most other people.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even a cursory glance at contemporary tech movements show that they are largely culturally progressive in nature. Anything from the TWC reveals that they fit in with the general leftist Bay Area political milieu: https://techworkerscoalition.org https://logicmag.io/the-making-of-the-tech-worker-movement/f... https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/13/14264804/palantir-immigra... If you think any of these groups are going to…

Well, I think you'll find from my previous arguments that immutability of the tenet is crucial. If it is an essential part of the belief system, only good can come from stating it to be so. The hesitance indicates to me a desire to tack into shifting winds: useful, perhaps, to you who only has goals accidentally coincident to mine, but deleterious to me. But that's overly judgmental, perhaps you simply haven't had th…

Perhaps they did not need to state that tenet because it is obviously self-evident.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Just don't join' doesn't work. Unions often bully or ostracise people who refuse to join. Sometimes they're in practice closed-shops, like the Screen Actors' Guild, even though this isn't supposed to be allowed in law. In some cases unions use violence against 'scabs' and other people who resist.

I like how a non-existent tech union is instantly popping up out of nowhere with both a massive bureaucracy, and a squad of enforcers to beat people up for not joining. Please, stop bringing up historical anecdotes as reasons why a tech union wouldn't work. It's funny how you don't bring up things like strong health care and training as anecdotes on the other side. The question of whether or not there will be "union…

If kickstarter is an example then they forced 37 persons to join it, so it is correct to fear unions forcing you to join.

"with 46 employees voting in favor of the move and 37 opposing it".

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/technology/kickstarter-un...

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#160
post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

> Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organizations are acceptable when operating in the interests of shareholders, but not when operating in the interests of workers?

The thing is, acting in the interests of shareholders is often acting in the interests of workers as well. Many workers are compensated using stock (RSUs/options/etc) which makes them shareholders. Even if that weren't true, for publicly-traded companies, employees are free to invest their compensation into company stock if they so choose and can then both vote on shareholder resolutions and share in the company's success (or failure). And even if that weren't the case, acting in the interest of shareholders helps sustain jobs and create space for raises by attracting investment.

With unions, there are a few major issues I see, at least in the US implementation of unions:

- First, they often institute parallel management systems and sets of rules that govern the business. It can make work more complex/rigid. These rules also often tend to favor employee traits like tenure. Over time they turn into something of a pyramid scheme, with the newer employees indirectly subsidizing more senior employees.

- They can create unnecessarily inefficient labor. For instance, I've heard stories from friends in manufacturing about how only certain employees are allowed to perform certain mundane tasks under the guise of 'safety', even though anyone could do it. It can be infuriating to hold work or delay customers due to rules like this.

- Unions erode individualism and localized control in favor of institutional control. Unions can become a conduit for implementing political stances as a result. For example, the NEA (largest teachers union in America) has taken a public stance on supporting critical race theory, including introducing factually incorrect/biased material like the NYT's "1619 project" into classrooms (https://neaedjustice.org/the-1619-project-resource-page/). [Note I am not looking to debate this point here, but am just offering it as an example of activism using a union as a way to route political stances broadly, instead of allowing independent localized control]

- Unions erode competition in the market. This is especially problematic for public sector unions, where taxpayers have no choice but to fund a particular public organization. In general, I do not favor unions having exclusive rights to labor at a company. If there were multiple unions competing alongside non-union workers, that would be a more balanced/healthier situation.

Ultimately I am not sure why unions have special provisions under the law. Workers seeking unionization are all free to form their own company renting out their labor services to customers. They get to act as a group, and negotiate as a group, but are still subject to choice and competition. Under this model, for those who don't agree with a union for whatever reason, they have the freedom to sell their labor as individuals or as a company. This seems like a much better situation than having large number of workers subject to tyranny of the majority within the bounds of an exclusive union contract.

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