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China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

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Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#151

Post by dvtrn »

kelnos wrote: post #140
vmception wrote: post #4

Like the article mentions, private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in the west will care about it. Which is very weird because it is exactly how people end up living in worse neighborhoods even if they have enough money to pay rent elsewhere, leading to worse and worse outcomes and no way to change that. A state sanctioned one…

Private sector credit systems allow you to examine your record and appeal to get incorrect information corrected, with a legal framework in place that ensures the credit bureau actually acts on your complaints. Also their scope is limited: if I show that I can't be trusted with credit, the result of my low credit score is that it becomes harder for me to get more credit. With China's social credit system, me habitual…

I show that I can't be trusted with credit, the result of my low credit score is that it becomes harder for me to get more credit.

Jobs too.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#152

Post by nl »

HashingtheCode wrote: post #77
2a0c40 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-security/grounded-life-...

Not the same thing as it applies to suspected terrorist only. In contrast anyone can be blacklisted by the SCS for numerous reasons unrelated to terrorism and banned from using ALL forms of public transport.

The key question is "is this subject to judicial oversight such that an ordinary citizen can challenge it"

The US is better in that id can be challenged. However, there are significant difficulties with this in practice[1]. This is still better than the situation in China where there is no legal means to challenge it.

[1] eg, https://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2019/01/02/no...

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#153

Post by asgard1024 »

The West also has social credit system, it's called money. If you do something useful for society, you will get them. If you don't do something useful, you will not get them and die of hunger. And if you do something wrong, you can often use money to avoid harsher punishment.

I think social credit systems are wrong, the moral behavior shouldn't be tradeable. But let's face it, almost all societies have them, and they have many flaws.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#154

Post by nl »

mistermann wrote: post #60
np- wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by common man you mean Han Chinese who live in major urban areas - then yes, your observation is mostly correct. But the expense seems to be the systematic oppression of rural populations and ethnic minorities (Uighurs, Tibetans, etc). The virtual (and physical) enslavement already exists [1], it's not really some hypothetical. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-buil...

> But the expense seems to be... There does indeed seem to be signs of oppression of ethnic minorities in China, but to me this is a relatively unrelated anomaly on a statistical basis compared to the general question of where do the fruits of labour in China go: to those doing the work, or to the ruling class. Most of what I have observed suggests that there is a "rising tide lifts all boats" phenomenon underway, al…

> this is starting to look like it's going to be just one of those very unfortunate facts of life

This reminds me of this quote:

"the Führer often informed those like Himmler tasked with implementing the Holocaust that extermination should be implemented as “humanely” as possible.... For Hitler, killing “impersonally” was, according to John Toland, synonymous with doing so “without cruelty.”"

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-97999-1_...

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#155

Post by mistermann »

nl wrote: post #154
mistermann wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the expense seems to be... There does indeed seem to be signs of oppression of ethnic minorities in China, but to me this is a relatively unrelated anomaly on a statistical basis compared to the general question of where do the fruits of labour in China go: to those doing the work, or to the ruling class. Most of what I have observed suggests that there is a "rising tide lifts all boats" phenomenon underway, al…

> this is starting to look like it's going to be just one of those very unfortunate facts of life This reminds me of this quote: "the Führer often informed those like Himmler tasked with implementing the Holocaust that extermination should be implemented as “humanely” as possible.... For Hitler, killing “impersonally” was, according to John Toland, synonymous with doing so “without cruelty.”" https://link.springer.co…

Ya, I can see the connection. If that's true, it's quite interesting, I'm not sure if that makes him seem better or worse.

The similarity I'd say is that I'm also emotionally detached from the situation (but intellectually attached - I perceive most people to have the opposite combo, fwiw). Differences I see are that I have no influence in the matter, and I have largely the opposite goals of Hitler.

My favorite relevant quote would probably be this one:

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

"Moloch is introduced as the answer to a question – C. S. Lewis’ question in Hierarchy Of Philosophers – what does it? Earth could be fair, and all men glad and wise. Instead we have prisons, smokestacks, asylums. What sphinx of cement and aluminum breaks open their skulls and eats up their imagination?

And Ginsberg answers: Moloch does it.

There’s a passage in the Principia Discordia where Malaclypse complains to the Goddess about the evils of human society. “Everyone is hurting each other, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war.”

The Goddess answers: “What is the matter with that, if it’s what you want to do?”

Malaclypse: “But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it!”

Goddess: “Oh. Well, then stop.”

The implicit question is – if everyone hates the current system, who perpetuates it? And Ginsberg answers: “Moloch”. It’s powerful not because it’s correct – nobody literally thinks an ancient Carthaginian demon causes everything – but because thinking of the system as an agent throws into relief the degree to which the system isn’t an agent."

-------

I think this is a good estimate of what's going on. If everyone hates the system (maybe not unanimous, but likely pretty close), then instead of constantly fighting with people whose goals (as opposed to implementation preferences) are likely little different than our own, why don't we put down our weapons, come up with a mutually acceptable compromise, and make it happen?

And I think the answer to that question is: because we can't. Not that we don't want to, or "won't", but because we can't.

But it's just an armchair theory, odds are I don't have any better clue than anyone else.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#156

Post by adrianN »

DeonPenny wrote: post #121
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

But you have to think the CCP know what to optimize for. Which history shows us govts rarely know more than people faced with issues daily.

I think you need to differentiate. Some issues can't be optimized by the people facing them daily, because game theory forbids them. Issues involving coordinated action are basically unsolvable bottom up.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#157

Post by danielheath »

readams wrote: post #146
bleepblorp wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nitpick: I don't think it's completely accurate to imply that Chinese elites are exclusively interested in economic self-enrichment. Societies where the elites are only interested in stealing everything they can take look like Nigeria (or Mississippi): a tiny sliver of people living in luxury while the rest of the population lives in permanent, abject, squalor. In contrast, median living standards in China have impro…

Only if the elites are very short sighted. You can extract far more wealth if the economy is strong.

Whoever ends up in charge can extract more wealth. Staying on top is the first problem for any elite.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#158

Post by stickfigure »

aeternum wrote: post #148
kelnos wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private sector credit systems allow you to examine your record and appeal to get incorrect information corrected, with a legal framework in place that ensures the credit bureau actually acts on your complaints. Also their scope is limited: if I show that I can't be trusted with credit, the result of my low credit score is that it becomes harder for me to get more credit. With China's social credit system, me habitual…

> Also their scope is limited Is this really true in the US? Increasingly I've been surprised at all the places that want to pull credit. Cellphone companies, electric company, applying to rent an apt, even HR departments.

These are examples of things that involve a creditor relationship. You usually postpay your phone and electric bills; even though you prepay your rent, in practice the eviction process is so slow that landlords are effectively on the hook for several months' rent.

Most of these have workarounds. You can buy prepaid cell phone plans (usually cheaper and easier than postpaid!). Electric companies will let anyone open up an account with a deposit.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#159

Post by godelski »

chrischen wrote: post #119
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes I don't know how anyone can say this with a straight face. In the west you can be bankrupt and still buy a first class airline ticket or go to a concert or do damn near anything else so long as you aren't using credit to do it.

Just because the method of oppression is different doesn't mean we are free from the same class of oppression. Credit is almost a necessity in American life, even if it is theoretically possible to buy a house paid in cash up-front. Doing so would be stupid because of opportunity costs on that cash. Apple now offers 0% interest financing. This isn't really a matter of using credit / paying in cash as it is literally…

Let's be real, if credit didn't exist only rich people would be able to afford things like an education or property. Sure, we can talk about it being out of control with things like student loans and auto loans but a system that is being abused doesn't necessitate the abolishment of the system all together. That would be like saying that no one can ever get married because you had an abusive partner. The situation is messed up, but the root of the issue is not in the system, it is in the abusive partner. Maybe we can iterate on the system to reduce the ability to abuse, but now we're talking something different.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#160

Post by ddxv »

Something worth noting, is that there are many social credit systems active in China. The majority of the rules are placed at the provincial level where the person's household registration is located.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Social_cr...

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