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Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

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Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#151

Post by judge2020 »

xmprt wrote: post #144
thdrdt wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they should first fight it before breaking it.

You can't sue someone unless you can prove damages. There's no way to fight this without breaking the rule first. I'm not a lawyer though so maybe there's an exception to this rule.

NAL but you can sue without breaking contract if you're challenging the contract's legality. Epic also is generally challenging Apple's use of their position to 1) not allow other app stores, and 2) take 30% of each sale (while other processors take 3%), which would be enough damages to sue over. Epic breaking contract is entirely a PR move.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#152

Post by Rebelgecko »

thdrdt wrote: post #139
foota wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe epic's point is that they believe the ToS to be illegal.

Then they should first fight it before breaking it.

Would they have standing if they weren't punished for violating the TOS?

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#154

Post by xmprt »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #143
inetknght wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up I'm not convinced that the console ecosystem would be destroyed if you forced them all to open up. Quite the contrary: I'd happily invest in consoles if I could build it myself with open hardware.

We already have an open console market. It's called the PC market. Consoles are nothing but closed PCs. Did opening up destroy the PC market? No. But opening up another console market probably would destroy it; there's no reason to separate a hypothetical new PC market from the old PC market. So if you have a PC market and a PS4 market, and then you open the PS4, you have a PC market and another PC market, and then y…

The console market has been slowly dying for the last decade. If anything, opening the console market could help rejuvenate it by turning consoles into general purpose entertainment devices.

And the claim that consoles are just closed down PCs is absurd. Consoles can play AAA games at a fraction of the cost of your average PC. The hardware that goes into building a console is significantly different than a PC.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#155

Post by colejohnson66 »

jhatemyjob wrote: post #135
jmpman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

That analogy would make some modicum of sense but there is a flaw in your argument. Those are video game consoles. WHO GIVES A FUCK

Video game consoles (in terms of XBox and PS) are nothing more than same spec’d computers. They both (PS4 and up and XB1 and up) run on x86-64 for crying out loud. They just don’t look like a computer (in terms of openness), but the homebrew community has shown that they can be.

So the comparison is pretty apt; Some are claiming phones are computers now, so why aren’t actual computers that have been walled up any different?

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#156

Post by ffpip »

Animats wrote: post #113
AlexandrB wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be less than that if Fortnite iOS users just move over to another platform and keep playing Fortnite.

"We're sorry that you were unable to log in with Apple. Here's a discount offer on an HTC U-series phone! And we'll throw in five new Fortnite skins!"

They got every single kid to enable 2FA on Epic Accounts by giving a free skin. My brother even asked me 'how to 2FA?'

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#157

Post by danShumway »

CharlesW wrote: post #149
danShumway wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a real stretch to look at what happened with Hey and think that they took on Apple and won. They re-engineered their app to fit in with Apple's terms offering a completely new service on the platform. And there were no changes to Apple's terms as a result of that, and no net benefit to any other developer. The only benefit that came out of the controversy over Hey was that Epic got another example incident they…

> It's a real stretch to look at what happened with Hey and think that they took on Apple and won. Hey got what they wanted, as did Apple. This is the way. It's amusing that people think Epic is doing this for the good of anyone other than themselves.

> Hey got what they wanted, as did Apple.

That's correct, they were not big enough to take on Apple and win. They bent to Apple's demands and figured out a solution that Apple wanted. In the process they saved their own company but had zero impact on the overall ecosystem.

I think my original point stands. If user-freedom advocates want a "champion" that can actually change the ecosystem, it's going to need to be someone bigger and more powerful than Hey. It's going to need to be a company that has a lot of lawyers and a lot of money.

> It's amusing that people think Epic is doing this for the good of anyone other than themselves.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24423865

Nobody supporting Epic in this lawsuit cares about Epic's motivations. It's not important whether or not Epic is doing this for their own good or not.

Again, think back to Google vs Oracle. Do we believe that Google wasn't selfishly motivated during that case? Of course not, of course Google is looking to protect its own interests. But the case still mattered for ordinary developers, and we still wanted Google to win.

I didn't need to stop criticizing the Chromium team or stop accusing Google of being anti-privacy to support them in that one lawsuit. "Bad company accidentally does good thing" is a perfectly fine perspective to have when dealing with corporate lawsuits.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#158

Post by tyingq »

hello_tyler wrote: post #122
aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

They broke the TOS on purpose and are now crying about that Apple actually held the line. I think Apple is way overpriced too, but when you go into their ecosystem and profit on it - you have to play by the rules. If you break the rules, you get removed. I would expect the same treatment on any app store.

They broke the TOS for the App Store. Did they break the TOS for "Sign in with Apple"?

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#159

Post by daveoc64 »

RL_Quine wrote: post #51
modeless wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They could revert their app right now and Apple would restore their account You have no way of knowing this and frankly I doubt it. And I'm not sure that it wouldn't weaken their legal position.

Apple literally told them that in court. Remove the crap, and you go back on the store.

While Apple originally said that, they have also said that they feel Epic's violation of the rules warrants a one year suspension of their account:

https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/sep/09/fortnite-could...

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#160

Post by judge2020 »

criddell wrote: post #83
gamblor956 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike Apple, larger developers can use their market leverage to negotiate better rates, and many have, which is why you don't hear Epic or Rockstar complaining about MS or Sony. This point is key to the difference, since antitrust is about market interference. If market participants can use their own leverage to push back against another participant's market activities, then you don't have an antitrust violation. Ap…

That large companies can get use their clout to get a better deal from console stores isn't a particularly compelling defense. > Microsoft and Playstation also allow for cross-platform play Don't some games allow iOS / PC cross-platform play? Epic's Fortnite did, didn't it?

Yes, iOS has no crossplay restrictions.
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