Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life • Hacker News Board

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#151

Post by yorwba » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

maoeurk wrote: post #110

croes wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free Tibet to go back to feudalism? You do know that Tibet and Taiwan wasn't any better for the poorer part of the people. Hong Kong is one of the most expensive places to live. The protesters are part of the privileged and are just fighting to keep them. Didn't hear them complaining back then in the asian banking crisis when China bailed them out with the money from exploited chinese workers.

> You do know that Tibet and Taiwan wasn't any better for the poorer part of the people I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but Taiwan is generally considered a much nicer place to live than China for the average person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_in_Asia_and_...

The important part is the "wasn't" in "Taiwan wasn't any better".

After Japan lost WW2, the island of Taiwan they had annexed in 1895 was turned over to the KMT, who moved their capital to Taiwan as a result of losing the Chinese Civil War to the CCP and ruled the island as a one-party dictatorship with martial law lasting from 1949 to 1987, during which they killed and imprisoned many dissidents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan)

Taiwan has only been democratic since the 90s. Before that, the only thing distinguishing their government from that of Mainland China was their anti-Communist ideology.

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#152

Post by ginko » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

lehi wrote: post #75

The circumstances of Britain's original forced takeover and colonization of Hong Kong in the Opium Wars are the greater evil to me. Righting that wrong after so long was always going to be painful. By analogy: a violent drug-dealer shoots you, robs you, and then kidnaps your child at gunpoint. Years later, you manage to have the child returned, but in the interim they have been taught by their captor to hate you and…

Only it's not you that wants the child returned but the guy that invaded your house and is living there now.

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#153

Post by srtjstjsj » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

PakG1 wrote: post #68

yodsanklai wrote: post #42

Does anyone here have an informed opinion on what will happen to Taiwan?

Did an MBA in Hong Kong, just finished earlier this year. A lot of my classmates are mainland Chinese. Bunch of them would regularly talk with each other and say that military action was the only way to resolve the situation, China needs to send its military to Taiwan and overrun the Taiwanese defenses quickly. Baffles my mind that they're so ready to default to war. Some other mainland Chinese people are more nuance…

Would China let any non-loyalists go to HK?

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#154

Post by Der_Einzige » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

lehi wrote: post #75

The circumstances of Britain's original forced takeover and colonization of Hong Kong in the Opium Wars are the greater evil to me. Righting that wrong after so long was always going to be painful. By analogy: a violent drug-dealer shoots you, robs you, and then kidnaps your child at gunpoint. Years later, you manage to have the child returned, but in the interim they have been taught by their captor to hate you and…

Lmao. Talk to anyone from east or south east asia about their thoughts of the british (if they were part of a former colonized country) and the story will go something like this:

"Well, the british weren't perfect but compared to Japan, or the 50 years of totalitarian warlords who ruled after, they were a paradise"

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#155

Post by rz2k » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

hnarn wrote: post #54

canada_dry wrote: post #6

What has happened to Hong Kong is a strong canary-in-the-coal-mine indicator for other Chinese territorial disputes [i]. With Hong Kong it was somewhat inevitable but I can't help but imagine how different it would be if the US and EU/Britain (as leads) would have strongly denounced their approach. I suspect in a decade from now the West will be lamenting how Hong Kong was the right opportunity to stifle China's ambi…

The best predictor for future behavior is past behavior: China is testing the waters, in some cases in a quite literal sense (South China Sea), and you're correct that how the world reacts to Hong Kong and the Xinjiang "re-education camps" will be seen as a vital piece of information in the future when deciding on how to proceed with other "problematic" regions: for example Taiwan, which in the case where strong-armi…

I have sympathy for the statement that lifting 500 million people out of abject, generational poverty ranks among the greatest humanitarian successes in history. At the same time local corruption, and the number of protests against those officials was an enormous problem and seemed to get remarkably little coverage.

A mature legal system is the only reliable way to combat problems like corruption. A legal system is much more reliable than a single powerful executive. China could have gone beyond mere convergence in its economic success. Different egos are running things now than during the start of the economic reforms, but in a better timeline I think some successful institutions from Hong Kong would have been adopted in more areas of China.

However, the west isn't in a position right now to say that in spite of it being harder work to run a system where political influence doesn't affect the legal system that strong institutions are the source of our prosperity. We're simultaneously in a period of dismantling established institutions, and less capable when it comes to managing crises than we used to be.

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#156

Post by srtjstjsj » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:21 PM UTC

PakG1 wrote: post #122

jimmaswell wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe now is the time to rip off the bandaid and break trade with China while we're already in a recession anyway.

I think you misunderstand how much of the world's electronics are manufactured in China and how difficult it would be to relocate all that. Like I'm invested in a rare earth element company in Canada, and I still expect to see the world rely on Chinese rare earth elements for a few years yet, let alone manufacturing know-how. It'll take a few years, maybe a decade, to set all that up in other countries, including in…

You don't need a great high school diploma to work in a factory.

Jobs had always been excellent at lying for his own interest.

What he really meant is that US employees expect higher wages but the US doesn't tarriff the dumping of Chinese labor.

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#157

Post by bitxbitxbitcoin » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:21 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #128

canada_dry wrote: post #6

What has happened to Hong Kong is a strong canary-in-the-coal-mine indicator for other Chinese territorial disputes [i]. With Hong Kong it was somewhat inevitable but I can't help but imagine how different it would be if the US and EU/Britain (as leads) would have strongly denounced their approach. I suspect in a decade from now the West will be lamenting how Hong Kong was the right opportunity to stifle China's ambi…

> I can't help but imagine how different it would be if the US and EU/Britain (as leads) would have strongly denounced their approach. What? What could the US have done beyond what we did other than all out war? The US response to this was very harsh. We undid 50 years of diplomacy with China, and have started building a sortof SEA equivalent to NATO. Chinese/American relations have probably never been as unfriendly…

I think the onus here was more on the UK than the US because the UK was the one with an agreement with the Chinese government that was broken. I agree that the US response has already been a lot.

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#158

Post by ginko » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #151

maoeurk wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do know that Tibet and Taiwan wasn't any better for the poorer part of the people I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but Taiwan is generally considered a much nicer place to live than China for the average person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_in_Asia_and_...

The important part is the "wasn't" in "Taiwan wasn't any better". After Japan lost WW2, the island of Taiwan they had annexed in 1895 was turned over to the KMT, who moved their capital to Taiwan as a result of losing the Chinese Civil War to the CCP and ruled the island as a one-party dictatorship with martial law lasting from 1949 to 1987, during which they killed and imprisoned many dissidents. https://en.wikipedi…

The White Terror was terrible, but I'd still take that over the Cultural Revolution any day.

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#159

Post by srtjstjsj » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #127

PakG1 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but my point is that most of the world, including the US, has agreed to acknowledge the One China policy as correct in order to access China on a diplomatic and trade basis. Hence why it's not so easy to resolve.

The PRC controls 99% of China (that's about the ratio between the PRC and Taiwan). There was not really a choice there. As a European I don't really see what there is to resolve. I can just hope that things stay peaceful.

The desired resolution is that China becomes a free country.

When the Nazis occupied France, the world didn't say "oh that's an internal German domestic issue"

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#160

Post by treeman79 » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #128

canada_dry wrote: post #6

What has happened to Hong Kong is a strong canary-in-the-coal-mine indicator for other Chinese territorial disputes [i]. With Hong Kong it was somewhat inevitable but I can't help but imagine how different it would be if the US and EU/Britain (as leads) would have strongly denounced their approach. I suspect in a decade from now the West will be lamenting how Hong Kong was the right opportunity to stifle China's ambi…

> I can't help but imagine how different it would be if the US and EU/Britain (as leads) would have strongly denounced their approach. What? What could the US have done beyond what we did other than all out war? The US response to this was very harsh. We undid 50 years of diplomacy with China, and have started building a sortof SEA equivalent to NATO. Chinese/American relations have probably never been as unfriendly…

Starting a revolution would be next step.

Goes both ways though.