Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal • Hacker News Board

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#151

Post by throwaway0a5e » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 10:06 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #64

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What updates does the US constitution need? I think if we were to rewrite it today it would become largely the same, maybe with a footer that says “and this time we really mean it”

It's an eighteenth century document that can be maddeningly vague at times. A lot of people (on HN at least) seem to think it's a problem that the First Amendment only applies to Congress, letting companies like Google or Facebook censor speech as much as they like. The Second Amendment isn't even written in complete sentences, and we need a room full of scholars to figure out just what exactly they meant by "A well…

The founders wrote reams upon reams of text discussing the issues of government. We know damn well what they meant by things like "houses, papers, and effects" and "shall not be infringed"

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#152

Post by leeoniya » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 10:07 PM UTC

> But she said even if Moalin and his co-defendants had clear notice of that, it wouldn't have helped their defense.

parallel construction is a hell of a thing

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#153

Post by eganist » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

fortran77 wrote: post #136

LatteLazy wrote: post #120

This puts scotus in a difficult position. They've generally refused to hear national security cases. Now they'll have to...

They don't have to. They can let the lower court's decision stand.

The lower court's decision standing enables litigation against the federal government and the NSA specifically.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#154

Post by rsynnott » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

FirstMatey80 wrote: post #67

kmlx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

objectively your post is false. the US has a flawed democracy, but a democracy nonetheless: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index consider the rest of the countries in that list

That index seems flawed. The methodology is not transparent. The Economist is not going to accuse its own ownership of oligarchy.

I mean, the UK isn't exactly doing _great_, if you go by the thesis that they're showing favouritism. It's about 0.5 points above the US, mostly due to better electoral process and political participation (which seems... fair?) but 1.5 points behind the highest.

For what it's worth, the UK also does better than the US in the Freedom House index, which is _funded by the US government_.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#155

Post by zucker42 » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

xxpor wrote: post #101

zucker42 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unconstitutional ex-post-facto punishment This point makes no sense. A properly passed amendment to the Constitution (presumably what is meant by update) can never be unconstitutional by definition. Furthermore, prohibiting ex-post-facto laws means you can't pass a law which criminalizes actions in the past. But courts don't pass laws, they interpret them. There's plenty of cases where courts interpret a law in a n…

>But courts don't pass laws, they interpret them. This is a common misconception. Courts don't pass statutes , but they certainly create law. Nearly every ruling from any sort of appeals court answers a question of law which is then binding on everyone under the jurisdiction of said court. This is the essential difference between a common law and civil law system. There are still rulings in the US that cite old Engli…

Sure, but it's irrelevant in this case because the Constitution prevents Congress and the states from passing an ex post facto law, not the courts from applying a new precedent to past events. I was just trying to argue that applying court decisions to events in the past doesn't violate the prohibition against ex post facto laws.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#156

Post by munk-a » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

heimatau wrote: post #135

shkkmo wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one is forcing you to be a US citizen ruled by Constitution, namely after an adult legal age. Rejecting US citizenship is difficult and costly, this places it practically out of reach of most US citizens

> Rejecting US citizenship is difficult and costly Freedom isn't free.

No the US government is just unreasonably burdensome about releasing their snooping privileges on you. As an ex-pat the amount of demands the US puts on me is quite extreme compared to some of my fellow ex-pat coworkers from Mexico, Australia and Brazil.

The US demands ongoing duplication of information which they already have access to due to international income sharing laws and has an expectation for a portion of the income I earn entirely overseas. The only thing I get in return is the ability to "reactivate" my citizenship at will, but that's only because it costs about 7k to actually revoke your citizenship and your taxes are going to get reeeeeally closely audited for any missing back-taxes.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#157

Post by king_magic » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 10:19 PM UTC

heimatau wrote: post #135

shkkmo wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one is forcing you to be a US citizen ruled by Constitution, namely after an adult legal age. Rejecting US citizenship is difficult and costly, this places it practically out of reach of most US citizens

> Rejecting US citizenship is difficult and costly Freedom isn't free.

TIL, as a US citizen, I’m apparently not free!

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#158

Post by heimatau » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 10:22 PM UTC

king_magic wrote: post #157

heimatau wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rejecting US citizenship is difficult and costly Freedom isn't free.

TIL, as a US citizen, I’m apparently not free!

Better late than never to learn.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#159

Post by jjoonathan » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 10:26 PM UTC

chard_slicks_ wrote: post #57

ncmncm wrote: post #2

Now, when can we begin prosecuting the instigators? Presumably, after we have prosecuted those who ordered and participated in torture. (There is no statute of limitations on torture, is there?)

Will Clapper's perjury ever be punished?

Not... wittingly.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#160

Post by topspin » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 10:27 PM UTC

ab_testing wrote: post #148

Isn't the 9th circuit the court where most of the liberal judges sit. This decision can as well go to the Supreme Court and get overturned.

The 9th is being flipped or has already flipped[1], depending on whom you ask. Trump has made 10 appointment to the 9th.

[1] Trump has flipped the 9th Circuit https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-02-22/trump-co...