Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#151

Post by umvi » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

xiler wrote: post #123

anoxor wrote: post #16

Having been a part of a union I was mandated to enter when I took the job until the supreme court ruled that wasn't legal, actual unions are a far cry from how they are portrayed as helping the worker. I would honestly do anything in my power to not have to work in a union again. They are set up as antagonistic between administration and workers, and adds a layer of bureaucracy that I've only seen be negative. I've w…

> actual unions are a far cry from how they are portrayed as helping the worker. I think it's a fairly well established industry trend that, on average, union membership is a net positive for the worker. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_wage_premium

Couldn't this just be because unions can have a deteriorating effect on meritocracy?

Say you have 10 workers - 2 are rock stars and make $50/hr, 6 are average and make $20/hr, and 2 are bad and make $10/hr (min wage - because they are never promoted).

Average "non-union" pay is: $24/hr

Now say you unionize and the union forces you to start paying the bad employees $20/hr like all the other average ones. So now you pay the 2 bad employees $20 each. Well, you still want to incentivize good work so you bump average employees to $25/hr. But dang, that's a lot of money, time to reign in rock star budget a bit. Now rock stars make $30/hr, average make $25/hr, bad make $20/hr.

Average "union" pay is: $25/hr

So yes, the "average pay" will be higher for "the worker"... but at a cost. Your average high performers will now be paid less, and your average low performers will now be paid more... which creates perhaps undesirable incentive structures ("why work my butt off to get ahead when it really won't make that much of a difference? I'd rather switch to a non-union company where my pay is directly tied to my output").

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#152

Post by heavyset_go » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:11 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #108

wnevets wrote: post #78

Whenever unions are mentioned on HN there always seems to be a coordinated effort to attack them in the comments, very interesting.

Maybe because a lot of people on HN are small business owners, and unions take power away from business owners and can and will force you to do things to the detriment of your business if they deem it in the best interests of the union members.

The vast majority of people on HN are people who need to work to eat and keep a roof over their heads, and the companies they work for take power away from them, and will force them to do things to the detriment of themselves if it's deemed in the best interests of the company.

A union is a company that represents the interests of workers in the same way that a company is an entity that represents the interests of capitalists.

Besides, many people on HN work for tech companies like Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm or eBay, all of which were found guilty of colluding[1] to keep engineer salary below market value.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#153

Post by kiliantics » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:13 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #98

pydry wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At the height of union fever back in the 80s it got so bad at one point that union activists Were subjected to police brutality while largely peacefully picketing. Meanwhile the army was called in to do their jobs... Apparently there was evidence of "excessive violence by police officers, a false narrative from police exaggerating violence by miners, perjury by officers giving evidence to prosecute the arrested men,…

I don't know of anyone who disputes the killing of Wilkie happened or claims that it was somehow exaggerated. As a taxi driver he was also not a police officer or an agent of the state. He was not armed or causing violence to anyone. He was just driving someone who didn't agree with the union to work. So they killed him.

So you have a single example of an (accidental) killing by unions. Now look up how many people have been killed by corporations for striking.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#154

Post by GoodJokes » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:13 PM UTC

At some point you have to question people that choose to work at Amazon who have other options. At the very least.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#155

Post by Ar-Curunir » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:15 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #126

sudosysgen wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they should help local unions (not that local unions would be useful for, say Amazon or Walmart) become a thing and give them incentives not to become part of a big union. Otherwise, substituting some compensation with part-ownership makes it so that the interests of big unions align more with the interests of other stakeholders.

> Then they should help local unions (not that local unions would be useful for, say Amazon or Walmart) become a thing and give them incentives not to become part of a big union. Or, even easier, just pay your workers well, give them decent benefits, and do union busting to prevent them from forming in your company. Why outsource treating workers well to a bureaucratic middleman when you can just treat workers well y…

Because that runs counter to profit?

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#156

Post by PragmaticPulp » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:16 PM UTC

wnevets wrote: post #78

Whenever unions are mentioned on HN there always seems to be a coordinated effort to attack them in the comments, very interesting.

I doubt it’s a conspiracy or organized comment ring.

The popular narrative around unions is one of the employees versus their employer, but ultimately even the business’ customers or adjacent businesses end up paying some of the price.

For an example that will probably hit home for many HN users, try asking your trade show team about dealing with unions. The restrictions imposed by unions on trade show attendees are unreal. We had to spend extra to use tool-free fasteners and pre-wire our booths to avoid trigger union regulations that only union employees could use certain tools and do certain wiring jobs on the trade show floor. The union even sent someone to watch us to ensure we weren’t using forbidden tools or wiring one year. If we did, they would send us a bill.

Unions have their place, but it’s dishonest to suggest that anyone skeptical of union efforts doesn’t have valid reasons to oppose them.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#157

Post by kmlx » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:16 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #104

chrisseaton wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Union activists in the UK have a reputation of being bullies, and in some cases in the past they've used physical violence to try to get people to do things their way. At the height of union fever back in the 80s it got so bad at one point that union activists dropped a concrete block on someone's head from a bridge because he was trying to get into work and they thought he should be striking (David Wilkie.) I would…

Also at the time that the leader of the NUM, the striking union, was a self-avowed Stalinist.[1] It's hard to overstate the extreme militancy of trade union leadership in the UK during the late 1970s. While Thatcher gets the blame for the disintegration of the labor movement, just as big an issue was that the union leadership no longer represented the opinions of its rank-and-file members. The 1984 miners strike larg…

don't know why you're getting downvoted.

this is part of history and one of the many reasons unions have failed in the UK. and they're still failing having lower number of members every single year.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#158

Post by kiliantics » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:17 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #138

colinmhayes wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, capitalism is awful, but it's by far the best idea we've got.

And keep in mind, we don't have a "pure" capitalism like the insane libertarian types would. (Remember how Ron Paul said Civil Rights legislation was unnecessary because the market would have taken care of it? It took years of fixing the system with child labour laws, union laws, anti-discrimination laws, factory strikes, workers riots, civil rights laws, minimum wage, etc. Capitalism works in the Nations where it do…

> because of years of regulation to make it more fair and to weed out exploitation

Actually it's because of years of union-organising, putting pressure on companies and governments to implement these measures. Without unions, we would have none of these improved work conditions and protections.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#159

Post by baron816 » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:17 PM UTC

I don’t know why this is even controversial. American style unions are bad for business, plain and simple. And Amazon is legally required to put the interests of its investors first. Amazon is going to be doing whatever it can to discourage unionization, that’s just what’s going to happen, and I find it hard to blame them.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#160

Post by heavyset_go » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 7:17 PM UTC

sacks2k wrote: post #74

mikestew wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were I to base career choices on every one-off negative anecdote about a particular work scenario, I would have gone to live in a monastery years ago. Of course, I'm probably replying to a Pinkerton employee right now. But, yeah, unions bad.

The core of a union is bad for workers that excel You won't get paid what you are worth and will get held back when you want a raise. In almost all unions that I've encountered, if you want a raise, it's as a collective. They also prevent technological advances and it only makes things more expensive for the consumer (Who do you think is fighting Uber and Lyft in major cities? Taxicab unions that were fleecing custom…

> The core of a union is bad for workers that excel

SAG-AFTRA represents both movie stars and B-list actors you've only ever seen in infomercials.

> Unions are great for low-performing workers that get guaranteed raises and can't be fired for complete and utter incompetence.

SAG-AFTRA represents every American movie star, the same movie stars that can command multi-million dollar contracts with their own terms with the help of the union.