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Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

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Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#151

Post by ProAm »

pwinnski wrote: post #75
0x402DF854 wrote: post #23

From a preliminary statement of Epic's motion: > Just over two weeks ago, Apple’s CEO Tim Cook was asked during a Congressional hearing whether Apple has “ever retaliated against or disadvantaged a developer who went public about their frustrations with the App Store”. Mr. Cook testified, “We do not retaliate or bully people. It’s strongly against our company culture.”

Some might see a difference between "a developer who went public about their frustrations with the App Store" and a developer who deliberately violated the policies and then filed a lawsuit and started an extensive PR campaign.

> a developer who deliberately violated the policies

Are you talking about Netflix?

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#152

Post by ascagnel_ »

dstaley wrote: post #84
muska3 wrote: post #36

Is it bad that I hope they do kill Epic's account? Epic launches a preconceived plan with media attacks and the most ridiculous 1984 reference that actually doesn't make sense in the current context against Apple. If I'm Apple, even if this is a straight up attack on me, I just follow the rules in my TOS and block them like I do others who don't follow the TOS. If you don't like the TOS, fine you don't have to be on…

> I just follow the rules in my TOS and block them like I do others who don't follow the TOS I'm fairly sure Apple doesn't terminate the developer account simply for failing an app review. I think this is a specific executive decision based on the fact that Epic is unlikely to rectify the issue, which could be seen as retaliation.

For failing app review? Apple would certainly be in the wrong for deleting Epic's accounts.

This was explicitly not a case of a failed app review. Epic rolled out their direct-purchase option with a server-side update (specifically to side-step Apple's rules), which falls afoul of Apple's developer agreement in two ways -- it would be classified as misrepresentation of the app as well as an attempt to mislead Apple during its app review. Apple reserves the right to block updates (which they haven't done _yet_, as Epic hasn't submitted any updates), delist the app (which they have done), remove the developer's account to block updates, and to blacklist the app entirely (eg: the app will stop working even if users already have it downloaded).

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#153

Post by s_dev »

elicash wrote: post #104
sircastor wrote: post #64

A lot of this feels to me like Rpic thinks they’re a bigger deal than they are. No doubt they make a lot of money, and they’ve made Apple a lot of money. I think though that their attempt to take Apple in the court of Public opinion is going to fall flat, because there are a lot more iOS users than Fortnite on iOS players.

What I find confusing about Epic's approach is taking on Google at the same time. It seems like you'd have some leverage at forcing Apple to the table if you were exclusive on Google, for instance -- and then, after winning, you could be exclusive on Apple for a while to cut a similar deal with Google. All your leverage comes from kids wanting to only have a device that plays their favorite game where they hang out w…

I think Epic are going to announce a new piece of hardware in the coming months. A phone that can play many games in their library.

Both Google and Apple are trash at games and Epic know this. Theres a lucrative niche.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#154

Post by ddorian43 »

username3 wrote: post #140
ddorian43 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple takes 30%, in this case, like, $500M+.

Apple doesn’t always get 30%. Retailers selling iTunes gift cards get a cut. You can guess their cut when they have 15% discounts.

Let me rephrase it: Epic loses 30%. In this case, like, $500M+.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#155

Post by josephcsible »

pneill wrote: post #69
throwaw4y-plate wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But can you be banned from doing business with millions of other people for offending the gatekeeper?

Yup. Exactly. Think of it this way. You manufacture product foo and it's sold to customers via some national store chain. If you anger the owners of the store chain, they can simply refuse to carry your product anymore. This happens all the time. The app store is no different. It's a national chain that Epic sells through and they've poked the bear one too many times. Lucky for Epic that it's privately held. Otherwis…

This analogy would only be valid if there were only one store chain in each region. For a better analogy, look at energy distribution, where there are rules that the monopolists have to follow.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#156

Post by woofie11 »

ArchOversight wrote: post #103
0x402DF854 wrote: post #23

From a preliminary statement of Epic's motion: > Just over two weeks ago, Apple’s CEO Tim Cook was asked during a Congressional hearing whether Apple has “ever retaliated against or disadvantaged a developer who went public about their frustrations with the App Store”. Mr. Cook testified, “We do not retaliate or bully people. It’s strongly against our company culture.”

This isn't retaliation though for Epic going on Twitter and being angry about the App Store practices, or the situation like Hey where the was a lot of press and negativity. Epic breached the terms of the agreement for their app, so their app was removed from the App Store. Other than needing to fix their app to no longer be in violation of the guidelines, they could have cured that breach of the contract. Instead Ep…

A one-sided agreement containing a retaliation clause, followed by exercising that clause, is retaliation.

Say you're desperate and need water in a crisis, and I offer you some, but only if you sign an agreement which gives you water, but says I can punch you in the face whenever you say something I don't like. Say you say something I don't like, and I punch you in the face. Did I just retaliate? Or did the contract make it not retaliation?

Apple is clearly retaliating, and I think it's gonna cost Apple way more than it realizes. Removing Epic games is one thing. This is a whole different can of worms.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#157

Post by ArchOversight »

dstaley wrote: post #145
ArchOversight wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what's in the Developer Program License Agreement though: Section 11.2 Termination, subsection (f): > (f) if You engage, or encourage others to engage, in any misleading, fraudulent, improper, unlawful or dishonest act relating to this Agreement, including, but not limited to, misrepresenting the nature of Your submitted Application (e.g., hiding or trying to hide functionality from Apple’s review, falsifying…

Sorry, to clarify, I wasn't trying to imply that what Epic did wasn't against the TOS. My point was that Apple has the authority not to terminate Epic, but has chosen to do so, even when they've allowed other apps that have done things against the TOS to retain their developer account.

There's a way to cure a breach in the license agreement, and other developers that have run afoul of the rules and were notified made fixes that brought them back into compliance with the agreement.

Epic has made it particularly clear that they do not intend to cure the breach, and Apple has made it clear that in that case they are not welcome to have an Apple Developer Program account and the permissions that grants a user.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#158

Post by kllrnohj »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #141
Jonnax wrote: post #62

I don't understand the comparisons to game consoles. You buy an Xbox or a playstation, and it's a game playing machine. It just plays video games. You buy a mobile phone. And it's a general computing device. It's very much arguable that it's necessary for modern life.

That you expect that the xbox and playstation are not general-purpose computing devices is a massive PR win by Sony and Microsoft, and one that Apple wants to copy. Apple doesn't want you to think of an iPhone as a general-purpose computing device. They would prefer you to think of it as an Apple Store app-running machine, to say that it just plays Apple apps.

Consoles don't open themselves up to any developer nor advertise themselves as such.

Apple, however, definitely advertises the hell out of the App Store, which is open to anyone.

Consoles also sell the hardware at a loss, and use game sales to subsidize it. There's different expectations, advertisements, and economics in play here.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#159

Post by woofie11 »

giovannibajo1 wrote: post #121
mantap wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually when you fire a customer they can go to one of your competitors. This just proves Epic's argument. There is no competing App Store on iOS because it's not allowed. If Apple "fires" you then your users can no longer install the app onto their own phones. Imagine if Microsoft "fired" Adobe and as a result nobody could install Photoshop on Windows anymore.

Fortnite is available on several different game consoles and platforms (most of which, by the way, have a 30% commission fee). It used to be the case that it wasn’t available on iOS, and it was a planetary success already. Customers that had a iOS device and absolutely wanted Fortnite had to resort to use another platform, eg. buy a PC or a PlayStation. Now we’re back on the situations where we were before: Fortnite…

Antitrust doesn't require a monopoly.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#160

Post by ForHackernews »

giovannibajo1 wrote: post #121
mantap wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually when you fire a customer they can go to one of your competitors. This just proves Epic's argument. There is no competing App Store on iOS because it's not allowed. If Apple "fires" you then your users can no longer install the app onto their own phones. Imagine if Microsoft "fired" Adobe and as a result nobody could install Photoshop on Windows anymore.

Fortnite is available on several different game consoles and platforms (most of which, by the way, have a 30% commission fee). It used to be the case that it wasn’t available on iOS, and it was a planetary success already. Customers that had a iOS device and absolutely wanted Fortnite had to resort to use another platform, eg. buy a PC or a PlayStation. Now we’re back on the situations where we were before: Fortnite…

Holy s* this is a surreal comment to read on Hacker News. Once upon a time we believed in general-purpose computing devices that allowed users -- their owners! -- to run whatever software they pleased.

Now you speak of "platforms" that charge a tax in return for preventing users from installing software -- on their own devices they actually literally own, mind.

Can you imagine if your car would only operate on roads approved by Ford?

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