Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong • Hacker News Board

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#151

Post by roel_v » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 2:32 PM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #143

roel_v wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's 40 hours wasted. 40 hours = one full working week = for (I think) the type of professional we're talking about $2000. I guess we can differ in opinion on what is 'reasonable' but I say that requiring what you're proposing is too much for me personally to take any such employer serious. (on the part of the 'past initial screening', the employee can't know or verify this. If there are 50 applicants, and th…

$2k to find a good hire is nothing. Signing bonuses, referral bonuses, and interview related expenses (air travel, taxis, hotels) are often on that scale or larger. Also, your numbers are way off the mark, you're not going to bring in 15 people for such an interview, you'd be extraordinarily lucky if you even managed to have 15 people that looked good enough to go that far, but even if you did you'd screen it down to…

Uh, what? I was talking about a $2000 cost to the job seeker. It may not be that much for professional, but it's nothing to sneeze at either (I've seen people making a multiple of 120k fret over much less than 2k).

The GP was talking about doing the 'screening test' for everybody who passed a first qualification stage. I don't know where you work, but having 15 'might qualified from a cursory glance at CV' applicants is very normal. Basically it's everybody who can use a computer and format a CV without using Comic Sans, and is smart enough to phrase his work experience or degree so that it sounds like it might have something to do with the advertised job offer.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#152

Post by gbog » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 2:36 PM UTC

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #18

The only hiring process I have found to work for developers is to sit down and work on real code together. This gets to the heart of the matter, and you very quickly feel out someone's knowledge, ability, and most importantly, how well they collaborate on a problem. Because in a startup you will need collaboration, and likely under the highest stress moments you've seen in your life. I also feel like this gives appli…

"The only hiring process I have found to work for developers is to sit down and work on real code together."

Yes. My favorite is to ask the candidate to go on a webpage he has been working on, show me the source, and we start discussing it together. I can ask him to explain some markup, or simple javascripts. Then the key point is when I go and criticize a part of his work. Two bad reaction: immediate yes ("sure boss! you are right boss") and immediate no ("who are you to criticize my work?"). I take the guy who really starts to think, check if I could be right, and accept to discuss the technical point of view.

Other point: I need to shake his hand, it tells me a lot!

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#153

Post by JerryH » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 2:37 PM UTC

Couldn't agree more.

The focus that the short sighted interviewers and companies have on how fast your can solve some pointless algorithm that a CS has figured out 30 years ago, vs how you get on with the team I find mind boggling.

http://www.jeremyhutchings.com/2010/11/interviewing-dating-f...

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#154

Post by anamax » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 2:44 PM UTC

mcherm wrote: post #135

roel_v wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, that's because no sane prospect (or rather, a prospect you'd want to hire) would go along with it. A reasonably competent developer has several options to choose from - it's just not rational to spend 10+ hours on each job opening; you wouldn't be able to coordinate and assess 5 or so offers in a reasonable time (when looking for a new job, people will apply at various places, compare the offers and take the b…

As a SCREENING mechanism 10 hours might be too much for the candidate to spend. But once past the initial screening, if there is serious consideration of an actual job offer, it is quite reasonable. The company will spend a good deal more than that on every candidate brought in for interviews (if you add up the time of everyone at the company). If the applicant is considering tens of different offers then they're Doi…

> 10 hours ... is quite reasonable.

How many good candidates have been willing to do it?

That's the fact that matters, not an argument about what people "should" do.

> If they're considering 4 offers and can't spend 10 hrs on each, then why on earth not?

Suppose that I'm considering two offers. One wants 10 hours and the other doesn't. Are you seriously suggesting that I shouldn't take that into account?

The answer to "why not" is "because even if getting a job is my only priority, paying extra for a chance at given job isn't".

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#155

Post by hackinthebochs » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 2:53 PM UTC

ootachi wrote: post #71

swampthing wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try looking at it a different way - assume, you will have a full time job at either of these prospective employers. Do you want the one that makes FT offers immediately, or the one that makes them only after testing new people out for 3 months?

I'd take the one that makes full-time offers immediately in a heartbeat, because I wouldn't trust the company that does the 3-month, no-benefits contracting "test". Going to work for a company with employees of varying skill is no big deal; every company above a certain size has people who probably shouldn't have been hired. Going to work for a company with shady management, however, is a deal-breaker.

Exactly. I don't get what the big deal is about working with lower skilled programmers. At my job there are some fairly "bad" programmers, but even they are a pleasure to work with. The trick is simply to make sure you hire nice people. I've spent plenty of time getting them up to speed with various languages and techniques, and they're all very receptive. The trick is, you yourself have to leave ego at the door. I think this is the hard part for a lot of people.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#156

Post by sofal » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 3:11 PM UTC

bugsy wrote: post #75

emehrkay wrote: post #11

While at my last job I was tasked with being apart of the interview process. My favorite question was "how do you keep up with web technology and trends? (web development)" and I was surprised at how many people had no answer for that simple question. My response to my manager was "this dude wont work"

My answer to that one would be "I've found it's more efficient to not keep up with the latest fads."

That's understandable, if a little antagonistic. I'd probably probe further just to make sure your definition of "fad" is not "anything newer than Blub."

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#157

Post by msluyter » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 3:21 PM UTC

btmorex wrote: post #14

Seems to me you just shouldn't ask typical "CS problems". The problem with those is that a positive result doesn't necessarily mean that the candidate knows anything. It could be that they've just interviewed so many times that they know a few common answers to memorize. I still think asking coding questions is extremely important. Programming is one job where you can actually test skill in the interview (unlike mana…

I agree that these types of questions can lead to false positives, but what about the negatives? Don't these have some value as filters? After all, if I can't answer a simple question like string reversal, it suggests that I can't code AND I'm not enterprising enough to do some rudimentary Googling to practice technical interview questions.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#158

Post by rfrey » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 3:33 PM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #127

blub wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm... why did they fire you?

I've wondered about that myself. I wanted to stay, I liked it there. But it's like many relationships in life, if both parties don't want it, it won't pan out. Edit: I also had to take time off for studies and I suspect they really wanted all-hands-on-deck.

If a person is fired from a company, and that person doesn't really know why, it is not a plaudit for that company or the managers involved.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#159

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 3:35 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #151

InclinedPlane wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$2k to find a good hire is nothing. Signing bonuses, referral bonuses, and interview related expenses (air travel, taxis, hotels) are often on that scale or larger. Also, your numbers are way off the mark, you're not going to bring in 15 people for such an interview, you'd be extraordinarily lucky if you even managed to have 15 people that looked good enough to go that far, but even if you did you'd screen it down to…

Uh, what? I was talking about a $2000 cost to the job seeker. It may not be that much for professional, but it's nothing to sneeze at either (I've seen people making a multiple of 120k fret over much less than 2k). The GP was talking about doing the 'screening test' for everybody who passed a first qualification stage. I don't know where you work, but having 15 'might qualified from a cursory glance at CV' applicants…

[deleted]

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#160

Post by emehrkay » Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 4:28 PM UTC

bugsy wrote: post #75

emehrkay wrote: post #11

While at my last job I was tasked with being apart of the interview process. My favorite question was "how do you keep up with web technology and trends? (web development)" and I was surprised at how many people had no answer for that simple question. My response to my manager was "this dude wont work"

My answer to that one would be "I've found it's more efficient to not keep up with the latest fads."

I would consider that a bad response if you kept it after probing simply because the sales dept likes to sell clients on the lates/greatest tech. And if you were a serious web dev, you'd have to keep up with it in some way.

Assuming you are a web dev, Im sure you know which browsers support which html5 features, which ones play which video types natively, and the newest css3 tricks that everyone except probably IE supports.

There is changing course with every shift in the wind and there is understanding which way the wind is blowing and charting your course based on the fuller picture. (and of course there is "the wind is blowing?")