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Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

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Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legislative means we’re not used. China had no legal authority to do what they did... but no one will stop them. You are correct to point out that force was not used (n/m the divisions of tanks that have been on the border), and Taiwan is different.

> Legislative means were not used. China had no legal authority to do what they did You are in disagreement with the BBC on this point: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52765838 > The Basic Law says Chinese laws can't be applied in Hong Kong unless they are listed in a section called Annex III - there are already a few listed there, mostly uncontroversial and around foreign policy. These laws can be introduc…

It is a breach of the one country, two systems non-interference pact which the handoff was conditional on, therefore not legal.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#152
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the last 40 years, while China lifted a billion people out of poverty, what evil did they commit that is even remotely comparable to what the US did in, say, Iraq?

This conversation is about Hong Kong. Not sure why you are trying to deflect from the things that are going on there.

The grandparent comment extended the conversation to all of China's actions. I think it's relevant to discuss the horrors the U.S. has enacted upon the world, if only for a practical reason.

That reason is that to understand how to solve problems elsewhere, you first need to understand how to solve the same type of problems in your neck of the woods. The U.S. spent the latter half of the 20th century and has continued since then exporting its way of doing things through military action. For example, I recently learned of Salvador Allende. He was a president of Chile that won a democratic election based upon his socialist campaign. He said what he was going to do and was elected by the people. The U.S. tried for years to thwart his election, and when he won, the U.S. directly supported, if not organized and enacted, a coup that ended in success, for the coup, and Allende taking his own life upon being surrounded. This is sickening. How can the U.S. and its people in good conscience decry other countries' actions when we do the same thing to other countries beyond our own borders? The U.S. still holds prisons that imprisons foreigners without charge and without cause. How can the U.S. decry China for imprisoning its own citizens? I am not supporting anything here. I am merely trying to explain that things matter and are connected, and you cannot view things with tunnel vision.

The other reason is one of perception. If the U.S. wants change in China and elsewhere, one needs to understand the political and social repercussions of one's own actions. This is called if you want to talk the talk, you must walk the walk. The U.S. primarily talks the talk while the rest of the world sees how the U.S. does not walk the walk. The U.S. does the very things it decries in another countries. This is very harmful.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, are Puerto Rico and Guam really that bad of a concept? I don't think so. Most of the western US was simply U.S. territory for decades.

Puerto Rico doesn't make much sense to me - they should either be a state and have the full rights and federal oversight that every other state does, or be their own thing entirely. Living in this limbo world where you're a citizen but sometimes in name only if you're on the island seems wrong.

They’re in a limbo because they don’t agree on what should happen. In the most recent real referendum (2012), a plurality slightly short of a majority wanted to maintain the status quo. But the rest were split: some wanted statehood, but the others wanted to be independent.

Note that Puerto Ricans are fully citizens. The island itself doesn’t have representation in Congress because it’s not a state. (Which is a legal thing that’s distinct from the people who live in the state! The “United States” isn’t just a name, it has legal significance.)

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to enlighten us.

Estimates of up to a million people dead, for something they didn't do. It was pretty bad.

Americans didn't kill a million Iraqi people, the taliban and loads of other groups did.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#155
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably many undocumented due to the secretive nature of their government. The threat China poses far outweighs any good they've accomplished recently. Old, unaccountable men with absolute power and surveillance of over 20 percent of the human species is not a good predicate for the 21st century.

> Probably many undocumented due to the secretive nature of their government. Are you saying the Chinese government could occupy a foreign country, commit war crimes against them, and kill over a million people without anyone knowing?

Americans didn't kill those Iraqis. Please stop spreading lies. China, on the other hand has no qualms about committing a large scale genocide against not just non-hans, but hans as well.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#156
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's better if USA kills innocent foreigners?

Honestly? Yes. I judge a country first and foremost by How it treats its own citizens.

That’s an odd distinction. Perhaps you judge your country firstly by how it treats its citizens, because you want to be treated well. But if it’s not your country, what’s the difference? Perhaps you live in a country that provides for your well-being by slaughtering and plundering all around the world. In that case your country is rather horrible. Objectively, the US actions in Iraq were far worse than China in Tianamen Square. In any case, China is obviously a horrible country (Uyghur treatment is just one example).

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#158
post #45

China is a horrific, authoritarian monster. I hope this century sees their vision checked and reduced back to the edges of humanity.

In the last 40 years, while China lifted a billion people out of poverty, what evil did they commit that is even remotely comparable to what the US did in, say, Iraq?

The increase in quality of life of millions of people in China is probably civilizations greatest recent achievement, and something makes many many people far from China happy and optimistic for the future. You are correct in pointing out that there are many powerful people in the big democracies, who crave authoritarian power and wield it brutally when they can, but they are resisted, though by fewer people than we would like to admit. It is starting to seem that in many places authoritarians are consolidating power, in democracies and in China. Some people are concerned by this because they see it encroaching on their power and privilege. Others fear first for the people of China, and then for all of us, that a rise in authoritarian power in China will fuel its rise everywhere.

Seeing all this happen, you have to ask - how much were the people lifted out of poverty, and how much did they climb out when Deng Xiaopeng took a little of the pressure off their necks

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#159
post #13

The Sino-British Joint Declaration was a mistake. What did they think would happen? If not now then what about in 2047?! Were they hoping that was enough time to warm the new generations to the idea of giving up their rights? There is no fixing this, but I appreciate the effort by the British. Many will not want to leave, understandably. But the threat of draining HK is an interesting sort of pressure to put on China…

aside from the fact that China was going to get Hong Kong one way or another I think there was a naive belief in the power of democracy infecting and changing the authoritarian government for the better.

Which I suppose this naive belief is part of the fear that is causing the current situation.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Estimates of up to a million people dead, for something they didn't do. It was pretty bad.

Americans didn't kill a million Iraqi people, the taliban and loads of other groups did.

> Americans didn't kill a million Iraqi people, the taliban and loads of other groups did.

The Taliban killed approximately zero Iraqis (you may be confusing al-Qaeda with the Taliban, and the group that after the war temporarily adopted the name “al-Qaeda in Iraq”, before becoming the Islamic State—that erupted into a major force because of the American mismanagement of the post-invasion occupation, most notably the almost entirely unmanaged demobilization of the security services—with al-Qaeda itself. Americans killed a lot themselves, as well as launching an unprovoked war of aggression which produced the context in which many others were killed beyond those Americans killed directly. But all of those deaths are America's fault and responsibility, even those that are also someone else’s fault and responsibility.

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