For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business • Hacker News Board

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#151

Post by itronitron » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

somethoughts wrote: post #82

chongli wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the trouble here is the double meaning of the word racist. When some people hear the word, they think of cross-burning fanatics and mass murderers. On the other hand, the current big conversation is about how everyone is racist and that society is rife with systemic racism. That creates a catch-22 for anyone who commits a faux-pas (like mistaking the black CEO for a subordinate). Either admit to racism and ca…

Yes - perhaps if the current big conversation was rephrased as "everyone is biased and that society is rife with systemic bias" - people would be more willing to agree that its a problem and agree that they are part of the problem and would be more willing to be involved in solving it. To be honest - everyone, no matter who they are, makes judgements and has biases.

Well, there are people that are racist. They are easy to spot because they make no apology about that. There is also systemic, or institutionalized, racism and the current state of law enforcement in the US is a prime example of that. What is interesting is how the systemic racism bleeds into everyone else's minds to form or reinforce their biases. If we can eliminate systemic/institutionalized racism then I would expect that most people's personal biases will eventually disappear.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#152

Post by _8j50 » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #135

_8j50 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is stereotyping but not neccesarily racism. I've made the same mistake at a car shop, I thought the small lady on my side of the counter was a customer, i ignored her and talked to the guy behind the counter, but turns out she was the boss+worker and the guy was helping out. I did feel embarrassed, but I know it's not because I think less of women, you just don't see women in those roles a lot. Maybe associative g…

> Why would the person on the victim end of this feel humiliated? Why wouldn't they? Being unfavorably stereotyped is almost universally frustrating and humiliating, regardless of any systemic concerns about racism and the like. Wrt. the case mentioned by parent, it seems clear to me that the person involved should definitely apologize for their social faux pas and mistaken assumptions-- and that seeing them refuse t…

If someone spills a drink on you by mistake at a restaurant, you would be angry not embarrased. The humility belongs to the person that stepped on the figurative poo.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#153

Post by pessimizer » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

rozab wrote: post #116

JPKab wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read "White Fragility". While I completely agree that the stories in this article are hugely problematic and represent issues that need to be solved, I think books like "White Fragility" are not helpful in solving them. This is due to a focus on group identity, and describing "White" as if it's a monolithic group of people, all with the same culture, emotions, and reactions. Another interesting aspect I identifi…

I think the trend you're describing comes down to post-modernists' general rejection of objective truth, which the scientific method relies on. This excerpt from the Chomsky-Foucault debate sums it up well[0]. I like the idea as a progression of philosophy but it's been applied in some pretty terrible ways[1]. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQvL7YH0L_o [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair

That's a weird box to put it in. I think the reason the fragility concept has caught on with (US) black people is because we each have far more experience dealing with white people than they have dealing with us (on average.)

It's difficult to design a study around. Calling it post-modern is just a slur. It's easier to say that you don't believe it.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#154

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

wottamap wrote: post #115

The messages that need to be said right now are very difficult to say because people have steeled themselves. But they need to be said. This is not meant to be flamebait, I truly deeply believe these messages need to be heard and understood, so please understand that I'm speaking in good faith here. If you feel strongly that I am wrong, please reply with well thought out reasons why. I will listen. Articles like this…

[deleted]

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#155

Post by Larrikin » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:19 PM UTC

analyst74 wrote: post #102

> the simple phrase ‘Black Lives Matter’ is seen as a political dog whistle, rather than a desperate cry to bring attention to a dire situation that many people choose not to see.” A little off-topic, but I notice a lot of the "All Lives Matter" people are mistaking the term "Black Lives Matter" as valuing black lives over others. I wonder if "Black Lives Matter Too" would convey its message better.

This has been discussed to death since the group started. The name was intentionally chosen and too was purposefully left off. If the phrase invokes a negative reaction but phrases like "Save the rainforest" or events like breast cancer awareness month don't invoke a similar reaction then it's meant to be introspective. I saw it translated with too in parenthesis in foreign newspapers in the beginning but not recently.

Several years in people constantly arguing all lives matter and disingenuously arguing the point after correction are also a good filter for trolls.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#156

Post by pessimizer » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:21 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #144

lukev wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you wait to do anything about systemic racism until it's fully quantified, it will be a long time until we can make any progress. Meanwhile, a central point of the book is one that should be self evident. Talking about racism makes white people[1] uncomfortable. I know this to be true from experience. And we can't make progress as a society until we own that discomfort and are willing to have frank conversations a…

> we can't make progress as a society until we own that discomfort and are willing to have frank conversations about racism. I am all for having frank conversations, but I think the topic needs to be broader than "racism". It needs to be "systematic inequality of treatment". Or even better, "systematic violations of basic human rights". Then we can focus on why our society, which is supposed to be based on everybody…

Why do we have to talk about everything bad before we talk about one thing that's bad, especially when it comes to black people? Why, when the aftereffects of American slavery are being discussed, is there always somebody who says that we have to talk about Middle Eastern and African slavery first?

Are the only important problems universal ones?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#157

Post by olivermarks » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:21 PM UTC

jt0 wrote: post #79

quadrifoliate wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a less rhetorical answer, that might help some people if not the OP – as an Asian man in America, I have to worry about people making stupid jokes about my perceived culture, but usually not about getting the police called on me and being shot dead because I'm examining a BB gun that is on sale at Walmart [1] (sometimes, there are exceptions [2]). BIPOC puts this group of people (Black and Indigenous) as a separat…

Adding to this from the BIPOC Project [0] "We use the term BIPOC to highlight the unique relationship to whiteness that Indigenous and Black (African Americans) people have, which shapes the experiences of and relationship to white supremacy for all people of color within a U.S. context." Not all groups face the same oppression and this term intentionally names the two groups which are systematically the most oppress…

Looks as if this site and the BIPOC media blitz was launched this month.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#158

Post by alexashka » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

panopticon wrote: post #91

tomp wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's still sexist. Same thing. Also, wrong. A better example would be, "women aren't passionate about driving". That's a stereotype, likely a correct one (i.e. substantiated by statistics... I mean, I'm not certain, but that would be my prior, but I'm very open to changing it), and most importantly: not harmful . It's just a stereotype. I'm not denying that things could be harmful (racism, sexist, ...). But not…

> That's a stereotype, likely a correct one [snip], and most importantly: not harmful. It's just a stereotype. Citation on those not being harmful? Stereotypes like that seem to be a driving factor in why STEM fields are very male dominated. "Girls don't like cars; go find some dolls to play with."

Citation on "Stereotypes like that seem to be a driving factor in why STEM fields are very male dominated".

And citation for that citation, ad absurdum.

At some point, we have to agree on what is actually going on in this world. We can't solely rely on citations, because I can just say that those citations are a result of an oppressive patriarchy and as a result, I don't accept your citation as valid.

Where do we go form here?

The basis for any possible discussion is solidarity - society doesn't work if people are constantly being pitted against each other.

If it doesn't promote solidarity - it's anti society, pro anarchy. If you want guns in the streets and children screaming, we're well on our way. I just don't know if those creating anarchy (all of corporate media including social platforms) are even aware of what they've done - they're undermining the foundation of society that makes their existence possible and they don't seem to care.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#159

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

mmsimanga wrote: post #83

api wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Guest after guest walked past the pair of executives to greet their White employee, offer their congratulations and ask how he got the idea for the product. This sort of thing has never, ever happened to me. Nobody has ever suggested that I hire a wingman of a different ethnicity or gender or anything similarly asinine either.

African here, this is common in Africa but in a different way. Often by fellow black Africans will trust a foreign white person over me. The big global consulting companies are making a killing sending over specialists in different fields.

[deleted]

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#160

Post by greenhatglack » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #57

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO. I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic raci…

I'm skeptical about Robin Diangelo, I read her book a few months ago, and it only seems to be an advertisement for her services as an anti-racist instructor. Her entire argument frames race relations within the context of the workplace which is problematic because her approach is coercive, not educational. It's more a guide on "how not to get fired for being racist" than anything. There are much better books for foun…

There's a lot of money to be made in "anti-racism" and "gender-science", especially in tax-heavy countries. No one ever dares to question it, and it's "good" causes that could use some of the workers income.

I'll be contrarian and recommend Thomas Sowell's "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" instead.