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Why are there so few black people in STEM?

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Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#151
post #135
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I can provide an interesting data point, I had access to a survey given to students at one college that asked a few questions to cross it with the student's results. Guess which was the undeniably most common issue among people failing two classes or more? Financial insecurity. It's hard figuring out a solution there as that was in a country with cheap (not free but still) education.

Anecdotally, of my friend group in college (at a large state school in the US) everyone who was financially stable eventually graduated with a bachelors degree. 3 out of 4 of my friends who were paying themselves through college dropped out. Having a part time job and trying to go to school full time took a huge toll on them.

> Having a part time job and trying to go to school full time took a huge toll on them.

Would it have been better to part time both job and college? Instead of 3-4 yrs for a degree, it takes 6-8 years, but you also work part time during.

This route exists for many colleges - why not do this?

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " That would be an incredibly stupid and unequivocally false thing to suggest because the odds are actually stacked against Asians, and they must work harder than most other people to achieve the same thing. " As an Asian, I don't agree with that. Many Asians emigrated from Asia with very little possessions and started their lives in Western countries in conditions as bad or worse than the poorest native born, incl…

Not sure about other Asians, but most South Asians that immigrated to US already had degrees and were upper-middle class (having the money to buy international plane tickets automatically qualifies you to be upper-middle class). Sure they had to live poor initially but their mentality was "this is temporary and we will improve our situation soon enough".

> Sure they had to live poor initially but their mentality was "this is temporary and we will improve our situation soon enough".

so to get back to the grandparent post's question - why don't black people have this same mentality? What is it that's specific that's causing the disparity between asians and blacks?

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm implying no such thing. There's no gene for basketball, just as there's no gene for engineering. Yet, certain populations excel at one or the other. Aptitude arises out of cultural and socioeconomic factors. Clearly, science and engineering are not strong factors in some populations' culture and lifestyle. Whereas, it is a lifestyle from an early age for hundreds of millions of whites and Asians, mostly boys. The…

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. There is a gene for basketball--it's called being tall and fairly muscular . There's a reason why there are very few great Ashkenazi basketball players, and it's not racism or culture.

> There is a gene for basketball--it's called being tall and fairly muscular

so then by that logic, you can argue why there are so few whites in basketball must be that they aren't as tall and muscular.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#154
post #118

They sure love that 13% figure. Why are so many nigerians in america so well educated [1] ? Not doubting any other assertions but my theory is that historically, STEM has not been a well reputed path to success,recognition and respect for black americans both in their communities and nationally. Segregation is only half a century ago,but even these days being STEM educated and black is associated with negative stereo…

Are these ideal Nigerians you're referring to from poor families? Or are their parents upper-middle class?

I don't really know any nigerians and I haven't ready any research that breaks this down by income.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#155
Note: I'm an African-American man who works in Silicon Valley as a researcher in an AI lab.

I believe there are a number of reasons why there are so few African-Americans in STEM.

1. Many of us grew up in low-income households that don't have the same amount of resources to devote to education that higher-income households do. Many of us also grew up in households where the parents don't have college degrees. Roughly 70% of African-Americans are born to unmarried parents, and many African-Americans live in single-parent homes; being a single parent is very challenging. Many low-income housing areas are unfortunately crime-ridden. It takes a lot of determination for parents to raise their children under such circumstances.

2. Having a successful STEM career means being able to master technical subjects that require a considerable amount of time and focus to study, such as mathematics. Consider the type of mathematics and science preparation needed to enter a top-tier undergraduate STEM program. Now compare that to the education opportunities that are available at most American high schools, especially those located in the low-income neighborhoods that many African-American high schoolers attend. Without the influence of a really good teacher or mentor, or without the influence of a parent who has earned a college degree, how would a student learn the study skills that are necessary for obtaining a STEM degree? I'll give a personal anecdote: despite my perfect high school GPA (4.0 unweighted), my history of being in gifted programs, and having taken seven community college courses (including three computer science courses), the transition to attending Cal Poly San Luis Obispo as a computer science major was a rough one for me because I didn't know how to study for rigorous university-level STEM courses. I basically skated through my entire pre-university experiences; I didn't know what it was like to actually have to sit down and truly study something that I wasn't already passionate about (I was able to teach myself programming and Japanese, but I found it difficult going through my physics textbooks). Despite this, I stuck with it at Cal Poly and ended up eking out a 3.0 GPA, which was just enough for me to enter a PhD program, though not my dream school of Carnegie Mellon. Unfortunately I knew of many students who either dropped out or switched to less demanding majors.

3. So, despite the odds, you end up with a freshly-minted STEM degree and it's time to take on the world! Well, the challenges aren't over yet. Imagine being the first in your family to have a white-collar job, as was the case with me. Who is going to give you advice about how corporate America works and how to succeed under that environment? Imagine being the only black person in your office, or sometimes at the company? Thankfully I grew up with a lot of immersion in various cultures and so I'm comfortable with being the only black person around, but that doesn't always mean that the people I work with are comfortable around me. I personally haven't experienced discrimination at the workplace, but I know other people who have. There are also non-work stresses; there's taking care of other family members, there's dealing with the police, there's dealing with dating, which I've found difficult in Silicon Valley. These challenges could mount up and have people think of alternatives.

I believe that any solution to addressing the shortage of black people in STEM will involve addressing all three issues above. Starting from #3 and working my way up to #1:

- We need to retain the black professionals in STEM that we already have by providing mentorship opportunities that will help us navigate our careers and our personal lives.

- For university students, we need to teach them how to study STEM and what it means to truly master a topic. Mastery of the foundations is important for research and developing technologies.

- Our high schools need to be more rigorous. By the time a high school student graduates, the student should know how to study at the college level, and the student should be able to be competent in a wide field of subjects, not only STEM, but also English, history, economics, government, and a foreign language. Middle school and elementary school should also be made more rigorous in order to prepare students for high school. Ideally the level of competence of a high school graduate should be equivalent to an associate's degree. Alan Kay once quoted an English woman who said, "[y]ou Americans have the best high school education in the world -- what a pity you have to go to college to get it!"

- Finally, we need to address the social problems mentioned in #1, though unfortunately I don't have specific solutions regarding these problems.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#156
post #151
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, of my friend group in college (at a large state school in the US) everyone who was financially stable eventually graduated with a bachelors degree. 3 out of 4 of my friends who were paying themselves through college dropped out. Having a part time job and trying to go to school full time took a huge toll on them.

> Having a part time job and trying to go to school full time took a huge toll on them. Would it have been better to part time both job and college? Instead of 3-4 yrs for a degree, it takes 6-8 years, but you also work part time during. This route exists for many colleges - why not do this?

Some financial aid plans only provides up to a limited amount of semesters.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#157
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about other Asians, but most South Asians that immigrated to US already had degrees and were upper-middle class (having the money to buy international plane tickets automatically qualifies you to be upper-middle class). Sure they had to live poor initially but their mentality was "this is temporary and we will improve our situation soon enough".

> Sure they had to live poor initially but their mentality was "this is temporary and we will improve our situation soon enough". so to get back to the grandparent post's question - why don't black people have this same mentality? What is it that's specific that's causing the disparity between asians and blacks?

1. Poverty, especially generational poverty, is extremely difficult to get out of. Studying in a university means you won't be able to help your family financially for 5-8 years. Which can be really difficult for many.

2. No role model. Let's say you can somehow manage those hardships. But how do you know all this effort and education loans will be worth it? There are not many role models for African Americans in STEM so they are afraid to dream big. For Indians it's very easy, our culture (especially the Brahmin upper-middle class culture) has always had plenty of role models.

3. They never really paid the true price of getting out of poverty. Education in India and China is highly state sponsored, so all the quality education you got there was mostly tax paid, which enabled them to immigrate to US in the first place. If you give African Americans the same quality education fully sponsored by the state things will change for them too.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#158
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. There is a gene for basketball--it's called being tall and fairly muscular . There's a reason why there are very few great Ashkenazi basketball players, and it's not racism or culture.

> There is a gene for basketball--it's called being tall and fairly muscular so then by that logic, you can argue why there are so few whites in basketball must be that they aren't as tall and muscular.

I think most basketball fans would agree with that argument.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#159
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure they had to live poor initially but their mentality was "this is temporary and we will improve our situation soon enough". so to get back to the grandparent post's question - why don't black people have this same mentality? What is it that's specific that's causing the disparity between asians and blacks?

1. Poverty, especially generational poverty, is extremely difficult to get out of. Studying in a university means you won't be able to help your family financially for 5-8 years. Which can be really difficult for many. 2. No role model. Let's say you can somehow manage those hardships. But how do you know all this effort and education loans will be worth it? There are not many role models for African Americans in STE…

So these are true for the current generation of immigrants.

What about the generation of asians [0] that were from the beginning of the 19th century? They broke out of poverty, despite all the same disadvantages.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chinese_Americans#:....

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#160
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry to say, but this kind of question gets asked constantly in every part of my life. Suddenly the interviewer is now your personal arbiter. You're living your sentencing all over again as someone youve never met is now deciding if you get to keep your apartment, buy a car, or get a job. It makes you feel intensely vulnerable and uncomfortable. Its one of the reasons I just dont look for anything anymore.

You shouldn't be sorry. I thought it was a pretty rude question myself. Curiosity shouldn't be an excuse for being a jackhole.

Not that I want to discuss about manners but, after someone told you, unrequested, some very personal stuff, I don't find it impolite to ask some further detail- although I accept it if he doesn't want to answer.

The question in itself wasn't out of idle curiosity but because the sentencing seems disproportionate. I wanted to double check this before launching in a tirade against the US justice :)

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