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Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he takes Google Cloud job

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Re: Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he takes Google Cloud job

#151

Post by Hnrobert42 »

edanm wrote: post #139
twblalock wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tech industry in California does just fine without noncompetes. In fact, lack of noncompetes is probably one of the biggest reasons Silicon Valley was able to take off in the 1950s-60s when people were constantly leaving their jobs to start new chip companies, starting with the original "traitorous 8" who founded Fairchild Semiconductor. There just aren't good arguments for noncompetes. People often bring up trad…

> There just aren't good arguments for noncompetes. I think the standard argument isn't trade secrets. The standard argument is that you want to incentivize employers to train employees. If I, as an employer, train you for 6 months, then you leave at month 7 for a higher salary (which you can demand cause you have more training/experience), I lose out. So I have no incentive to train you. So training or hiring of peo…

That’s the stick way. The carrot way is to offer a bonus if the employee stays for a year. Even more effective is to give the bonus immediately, but require they repay it (or forfeit final wages) if they leave earlier than a year.

Re: Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he takes Google Cloud job

#152

Post by antaviana »

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #129
pwdisswordfish2 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what most outside counsel in WA advise their corporate clients. Use non-competes. Even though everyone knows they are essentially unenforceable. A "venomous separation" is more lucrative for outside counsel than an amicable one where they are not needed.

Would a company like Amazon not have full time lawyers retained on salary instead of relying on outside counsel with that conflict?

They wouldn’t sign its NCA.

Re: Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he takes Google Cloud job

#153

Post by csunbird »

bsder wrote: post #149
csunbird wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the company can make your life miserable by suing you because you have to hire and pay the lawyer to win the case. This is the part that I can not understand about United States. How is this even allowed? It is literally bullying someone to submit, even if what you do is illegal. One of the main reasons I choose to immigrate to EU instead of US

The EU has it's own systemic issues. However, they are different because it is mostly based on a Napoleonic Law basis rather than Common Law basis. The problem in the US is that judges don't throw around the "this was pretty obviously frivolous and you lost so you have to pay for the court costs" card anywhere nearly enough. Another problem is that the lawyer doesn't share in the penalty even when it gets applied. A…

I feel like it comes back down to the ethics. A lawyer should not accept the case, because they should know the case is not valid, but they do it regardless. If there was a repercussion for accepting too many invalid cases or suing people for not legal grounds, they would stop doing that.

But, that is not going to happen obviously.

Re: Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he takes Google Cloud job

#154

Post by AnthonyMouse »

edanm wrote: post #139
twblalock wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tech industry in California does just fine without noncompetes. In fact, lack of noncompetes is probably one of the biggest reasons Silicon Valley was able to take off in the 1950s-60s when people were constantly leaving their jobs to start new chip companies, starting with the original "traitorous 8" who founded Fairchild Semiconductor. There just aren't good arguments for noncompetes. People often bring up trad…

> There just aren't good arguments for noncompetes. I think the standard argument isn't trade secrets. The standard argument is that you want to incentivize employers to train employees. If I, as an employer, train you for 6 months, then you leave at month 7 for a higher salary (which you can demand cause you have more training/experience), I lose out. So I have no incentive to train you. So training or hiring of peo…

> The standard argument is that you want to incentivize employers to train employees.

Charge tuition for training and offer "student loans" with no payments or interest while you're working for the company which are forgiven if you stay for five years or whatever. Then if somebody wants to poach you right away, that's fine, they can just pay off your training loan.

Re: Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he takes Google Cloud job

#155

Post by pwdisswordfish2 »

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #129
pwdisswordfish2 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what most outside counsel in WA advise their corporate clients. Use non-competes. Even though everyone knows they are essentially unenforceable. A "venomous separation" is more lucrative for outside counsel than an amicable one where they are not needed.

Would a company like Amazon not have full time lawyers retained on salary instead of relying on outside counsel with that conflict?

Attempting to enforce a non-compete would be handled by outside counsel. It is likely that oustide counsel were consulted before Amazon began using non-compete provisions. It is also likly that the "boilerplate" non-complete provision(s) Amazon is using originated from an outside firm.

Re: Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he takes Google Cloud job

#156

Post by piva00 »

turboturbo wrote: post #134
franczesko wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wouldn't be able to happen in EU as well. Previous employer can't force you to not being able to offer your services in the job market. They can pay you instead.

This is factually incorrect

Please elaborate, here in Sweden a NCA is only enforceable if the company is willing to pay up to 60% of the full salary to keep the non-compete, limited to 18 months maximum.

Without compensation the NCA is null and void.

Re: Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he takes Google Cloud job

#157

Post by piva00 »

drevil-v2 wrote: post #128
psanford wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fairly common in investment banking and is called "gardening leave". My understanding is that in banking you get your salary but not your bonus during the gardening leave period.

I have never seen Gardening Leave used in this manner. Usually (and I know this from personal experience) if you are senior enough you have a notice period of 3-6 months and under normal circumstances you are expected to do a proper handover before leaving. Sometimes they don't want you to come in to the office or have access to the corporate network/data but they still want access to you in case they need it. Non-co…

Not in the US but in Sweden a NCA is enforceable only if the employee is being paid (up to 60% of the former salary) during the whole period of the NCA that can last up to a maximum of 18 months.

Re: Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he takes Google Cloud job

#158

Post by philjohn »

solarkraft wrote: post #135
turboturbo wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is factually incorrect

Please elaborate

in the UK for example, which is still sort of in the EU during the transition period, a non-compete IS enforceable as long as it is reasonable and proportionate.

Overly long time periods or overly broad geography will get it struck out, but 6 months not working for a direct competitor is usually going to be fair game.

Re: Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he takes Google Cloud job

#159

Post by tonyedgecombe »

Forge36 wrote: post #95
bradj wrote: post #52

The tech industry just needs to take a cue from the finance industry and standardize garden leave.

Interesting concept. Would that have prevented the problem here?

That depends on what Amazon's motives were.
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