De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer • Hacker News Board

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#151

Post by OpieCunningham » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:45 AM UTC

tcbawo wrote: post #103

panic wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police could stop the protests instantly by changing how they deal with racist officers and officers who kill people. They would rather escalate the situation than make these changes.

Being a police officer is a difficult, thankless, dangerous job, yet critical for a functional society. You don't get the same resources, respect, or pension of the military. If you are let go/fired, you have little chance of finding something comparable close by. It's not healthy for the psyche to be put into harm's way for an entire career span. There is probably a lot of untreated PTSD going on. It's not surprisin…

>> Being a police officer is a ... thankless ... job

Police officers are regularly held up as heroes, and often afforded special privileges in everyday life.

If anything, they are irrationally worshipped.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#152

Post by maxerickson » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:45 AM UTC

vulcan01 wrote: post #105

SlavikCA wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all lawsuits are settled with funds from police pension funds I like it most. > police go to jail > officers who do not report other officers go to jail > bosses/chiefs etc who are aware of abuses of power and brutality and do not arrest those officers go to jail All these "go to jail" stops at the "qualified immunity". And no politician yet was willing to do anything about it. We need to demand to end this "qualif…

> all lawsuits are settled with funds from police pension funds Wouldn't that hurt all the police officers in that area?

Yes. It's likely part of the point, so that they have reason to, uh, police each other.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#153

Post by komali2 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:45 AM UTC

somebrody wrote: post #91

emperorsclothes wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange to see wild narratives on HN about police racism and violence that have no basis in reality.

> wild narratives on HN about police racism and violence You can see cops wilding out here From reddit: Please share this firing something at innocent person on their porch: https://streamable.com/u2jzoo cop appearing to be enjoying himself today: https://v.redd.it/jjclrdzp8x151 cop shooting something at guy for saying "fuck you": https://v.redd.it/zepg0b43ly151 cops breaking supplies for peaceful protestors: https:/…

If you're going to downvote the comment with more sources than any other in the whole thread I think the OP deserves to know why.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#154

Post by stcredzero » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:46 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #125

beloch wrote: post #78

We should expect police to us less use violence and improve their crowd management and deescalation skills. The increasing militarization of police is a trend that must be reversed. However, we should not neglect the other side of the equation either. This article is, in large part, about just that. The article points out that many protests in the U.S. went smoothly through the practice of police and protest organize…

I disagree that any responsibility should fall to the protesters. The right to protest is baked into the first legal document the country as a political entity wrote. For the last 250 years politicians and cops have had the knowledge that Americans care a great deal about their right to stand in front of a statehouse and shout to their heart's content. They should create their own policies to deal with that fact. If…

Now that being said, black lives matter in particular suffers from (in my opinion) a lack of leadership and organization.

A universal problem with "leaderless movements" is that they quickly devolve to the lowest common denominator level. Anyone can put out their slate and call themselves an "activist" and it's inevitable that some dim person will come along and try to make a name for themselves by taking things farther. Put that person into a crisis situation with quickly gathering flash mobs, and what should we expect?

Then, on top of that, add on extremist opportunists who decide to exploit the situation, with the goal of destabilizing social order. A "leaderless movement" has all of the biomass of a huge national organization, but none of the immune system and command/control to counter such organized exploiters.

in my opinion raw, unfettered, and disorganized rage is a perfectly valid outlet for the people against the crimes of the American police system.

No. Outside of a protest, the worst actions we've seen would be crimes and qualify the perpetrator as a bad person. Just because they're in a protest doesn't change that. Would you feel that way if they came and burned your house or business down?

Evil is evil. Violence is violence. Another's evil is no excuse to perpetrate your own. Especially if it falls on innocent bystanders.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#155

Post by komali2 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:46 AM UTC

tcbawo wrote: post #103

panic wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police could stop the protests instantly by changing how they deal with racist officers and officers who kill people. They would rather escalate the situation than make these changes.

Being a police officer is a difficult, thankless, dangerous job, yet critical for a functional society. You don't get the same resources, respect, or pension of the military. If you are let go/fired, you have little chance of finding something comparable close by. It's not healthy for the psyche to be put into harm's way for an entire career span. There is probably a lot of untreated PTSD going on. It's not surprisin…

You say this, and yet crime went down when NYPD went on strike.

I'm not saying we get rid of all cops... But I also don't see any reason for them to have an Ironman suit for every officer.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#156

Post by bluedino » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:46 AM UTC

rectang wrote: post #48

davros wrote: post #17

From afar, it seems to me like the big problem in US policing is a lack of calm professionalism. The de-escalation approach in the article would to me but just one aspect of taking a professional approach where safety and following rules and best practices is paramount (and prioritised over 'winning' against criminals).

I have always suspected that US police are shunted into sub-optimal patterns because there are so many guns here that the odds a simple interaction will involve a firearm are much higher than they are in less-well-armed societies. Does anybody know if I'm right about that? That doesn't mean that they can't do more de-escalation or take other steps, but the high prevalence of guns does seem like it would be a contribu…

There have been almost no guns used against police during these protests.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#157

Post by dwaltrip » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:47 AM UTC

lsh123 wrote: post #137

komali2 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could we please not waste a second of thought on the relatively minor issue of broken store windows until we sort the issue of cops indiscriminately killing black people? If you care so much, how about petition your local police force to dump their tear gas at the range and stop firing on peaceful protesters, turning a lot of sitting people into a riot.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de...

Why are you linking non-normalized statistics? It is such a basic error to not adjust per-capita that part of me doubts how much you care about the truth.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#158

Post by komali2 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:48 AM UTC

lsh123 wrote: post #137

komali2 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could we please not waste a second of thought on the relatively minor issue of broken store windows until we sort the issue of cops indiscriminately killing black people? If you care so much, how about petition your local police force to dump their tear gas at the range and stop firing on peaceful protesters, turning a lot of sitting people into a riot.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de...

Hahahaha I gotta say I wasn't expecting a gamer statistic poster on HN. At a minimum I'd expect everyone here to understand the difference between "volume" and "per capita."

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#159

Post by ineedasername » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:48 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #131

lsh123 wrote: post #121

Could we please stop calling “protesters” all the people looting jewelry stores, Target, Nike, etc? These are not protesters, these are looters. Police should use any means at their disposal to protect lives and property from looters and rioters.

Could we please not waste a second of thought on the relatively minor issue of broken store windows until we sort the issue of cops indiscriminately killing black people? If you care so much, how about petition your local police force to dump their tear gas at the range and stop firing on peaceful protesters, turning a lot of sitting people into a riot.

It's not a minor issue. It detracts significantly from the really issue at hand, making it nearly impossible to engage with protestors in a dialog as the small number of folks intent on violence and looting take all of the resources and attention, severely undermining the point of the protests, especially because it provides those disinclined to sympathy for the real issue to paint all with the same brush and so dismiss them.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#160

Post by komali2 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:48 AM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #142

komali2 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could we please not waste a second of thought on the relatively minor issue of broken store windows until we sort the issue of cops indiscriminately killing black people? If you care so much, how about petition your local police force to dump their tear gas at the range and stop firing on peaceful protesters, turning a lot of sitting people into a riot.

I care about both. Two wrongs are two wrongs.

Is it? Is it wrong to remove someone's freedom of movement... After they assault someone? Removing someone's freedom of movement (jailing them) is Wrong, after all.