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Do I need to go to university?

colah.github.io

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Re: Do I need to go to university?

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because their lives suck now, and college would have alleviated that. That they didn't (have the chance to ) go is part of the point I believe. But yeah it was worded strangely.

College would have alleviated it for four years during college . I’m not convinced that the job market transforms quickly to absorb twice as many people in jobs we think of today as “college required”. I’m not sure what the correlation between income (or other life outcomes) is between “attended college” vs “would typically have chosen college but took another route” but I suspect it’s a lot smaller than between that…

This might be the paper I was recalling: https://www.nber.org/papers/w7322

As summarized by the Atlantic: "For most students, the salary boost from going to a super-selective school is “generally indistinguishable from zero” after adjusting for student characteristics, such as test scores. In other words, if Mike and Drew have the same SAT scores and apply to the same colleges, but Mike gets into Harvard and Drew doesn’t, they can still expect to earn the same income throughout their careers. Despite Harvard’s international fame and energetic alumni outreach, somebody like Mike would not experience an observable “Harvard effect.” Dale and Krueger even found that the average SAT scores of all the schools a student applies to is a more powerful predictor of success than the school that student actually attends.

This finding suggests that the talents and ambitions of individual students are worth more than the resources and renown of elite schools. Or, less academically, the person you’re becoming at 18 is a better predictor of your future success than the school you graduate from at 22. The takeaway here: Stress out about your habits and chill out about college."

To be fair, the Atlantic continues on to say that the effect is different for women (which they ascribe primarily to increased workforce participation rates).

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#152
post #139

I went to university. I did not receive any job training at university. It is not design for job training and I did not expect to receive job training. I am not a job. I am not a career. I learned two important things at university that I doubt I could have picked up otherwise. 1. I learned how broad knowledge is. I learned about things I did not even know I did not know about. Some of these things I learned in class…

I don't understand this sentiment. I didn't go to university to learn "how broad knowledge is". Haven't you had 11 years of school to learn this? Haven't you had 18 years of formative relations with your parents to learn this? Learning this at college sounds like a massive waste of (1) money (2) your time (3) time of professors.

The US spends ~3.5% of GDP on non-tertiary education and ~2.5% on tertiary education. If what you are saying is representative of the general population, it means there is a massive unjustified waste of resources.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#153
Telling people they don't "need" to go to university is an act of personal sabotage. The person giving you that advice is either an idiot, or wants to keep you in your place for other reasons.

This is an urgent view.

The post-hoc justifications of people who either didn't go, or people who did go but want to believe their other accomplishments are more defining - are not valuable to someone who has the means and opportunity to make the investment. The more arbitrary and meaningless having a degree seems, the more important it is to actually get one, because without one, you are subject to the even more arbitrary and meaningless barriers that it will otherwise unlock. You don't know them because you don't get to them until 10y+ after you graduate. A "degree," is in effect the degree of trajectory for the compounding rate of the value of your experience to others, where you don't see the effects until much later.

Look at the rate of occurrence of non-degreed people above a certain level of financial success, property ownership, executive management, assets, and opportunity, and then compare them to the very long tail of the hundreds-of-millions other non-degreed people you are in a labour market with. The distribution of that curve looks a lot like lottery winners. Given outcomes are exponentially distributed, should you make an investment, or just play the lottery? Get a degree, or always work for people who have one when you don't.

People who think education is mainly about skills and training don't understand what education is. Suffice it to say that a degree is a strategic investment. If you don't know what that means, I recommend investing in your education.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#154
post #4

I went to mediocre uni here in the UK studying Web Development. The educational value was pretty much worthless. I learnt more in a year at my first job than three years of university. But being forced to move out and become independent was invaluable.

Some education isn't all that useful. I had a computer-something-related class in college where we were talking about how computers were getting faster. Professor: If you think computers are fast now, it'll blow your mind that back in the 60s the NSA has computers running at 1000. Me: 1000? You mean 1000 megahertz? Professor: No, 1000. Me: facepalm I'm still paying off those student loans.

"Those that can't do, teach."

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most of my career, nobody 'created' a job for me. I went out and figured out something useful to do, did it, and made a living. And would we imagine a society of capable, educated, useful people is not preferable to a society of ignorant unskilled people? Why would we wish that on ourselves? How does that improve the world? Even worse, the implied understanding that our society cannot function without an uneducat…

>And would we imagine a society of capable, educated, useful people is not preferable to a society of ignorant unskilled people? Have you been involved much in hiring? I suspect if you had it would disabuse you of the notion that university is effective at producing "capable, educated, useful people".

Until you interview people who haven't been to college.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#156
post #37

The anti-university sentiment on HN is absolutely alien to me. Not only did I get a lot out of my university education, but it was a totally transformative experience for me. It also enables me to do my job, and I’ve never seen anyone without a good education do it well. Yes, I get that you can be a react developer without a university qualification. This may come as news to some, but most fields bear no resemblance…

I was going to make the snap judgment that HN happens to be popular among computer programmers, an occupation that is fairly unique in terms of providing lucrative indoor work without strictly needing college training. Many of the programmers of my generation (graduated high school in 1982) have little or no formal training in programming.

I don't know anybody who learned math or physics outside of a college classroom. Maybe there are some out there, but I haven't met them.

But it goes further. What strikes me is not only an anti-university sentiment, but also a strong anti high school sentiment. I've been surprised by the number of comments from people who are obviously smart and diligent enough to be programmers, but for whom high school was a disaster. And it occurs to me that this does reveal that education is not serving everybody equally well.

So, even though I value my university education, I'm still interested in hearing how others have experienced it. However for students, my advice is that you have to find the thing that makes college worthwhile for you. If you go in with a cynical attitude, that it's just "signaling" or "networking," then you are likely to be blinding yourself to the other kinds of opportunities that it presents.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#157

Telling people they don't "need" to go to university is an act of personal sabotage. The person giving you that advice is either an idiot, or wants to keep you in your place for other reasons. This is an urgent view. The post-hoc justifications of people who either didn't go, or people who did go but want to believe their other accomplishments are more defining - are not valuable to someone who has the means and oppo…

I don't disagree that degrees and college education are important, but I don't think pointing to wealthy people is good evidence. Many of the wealthiest billionaires dropped out of school, didn't even go, or didn't consider it important. There are also many wealthy via inheritance. So, looking at the wealthy is not the demographic cohort that reveals the value of higher education.

The reasons to attend college are more than moneymaking. Social networking, maturation, shared experience, opportunities to expand your knowledge beyond online tutorials, college offers many interesting experiences that going straight to work will not.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#158
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m guessing that Title Case in English is a logical extension of the European norm of capitalizing proper nouns; a title is the proper noun used to identify a written work.

This doesn't seem like a European norm to me, maybe it is done in German but I don't see it in English or French publications.

I was making a comparison between European proper nouns (like Jacques and Hans) and English title case. I was speculating why the English title case practice arose.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#159
post #28
post #15

I am 18 year old, I'm already working as a developer, and they have offered me a very nice full time job offer. I have been thinking about whether or not to go to university for most of the past year. In the end, I did choose to go to university. I will be working part-time to pay about 90% of it (including housing) which means I'll have practically no debt. The main reason for me to go, was that I don't want to de a…

Shopfiy intern?

I'm not a Shopify intern. I work at a relatively small company, which is not internationally known. We are mainly a white label ISP, but also have both managed and unmanaged servers for companies and government entities which can not or will not use public cloud providers.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And would we imagine a society of capable, educated, useful people is not preferable to a society of ignorant unskilled people? Have you been involved much in hiring? I suspect if you had it would disabuse you of the notion that university is effective at producing "capable, educated, useful people".

Until you interview people who haven't been to college.

For people who make it through the initial technical screening to the on-site round, I think there's probably a positive correlation to outcome for those who are self-taught. (I equally suspect there's a higher percentage filtered out before on-site, of course.)
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