Would someone mind providing texts that particularly exemplify the Soviet style?
Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
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Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#152In my high school year in international school(in germany) I've seen many students from diverse backgrounds. I could see balanced number of students taught from their own origin: US, asian or international school itself.
One thing I remember until now is that students from US kept using the phrase 'plug-it-in' whenever they substitute values into quadratic formula. Overusing that term made me laugh about their attitude towards math because it felt as if they didn't really care what's inside that magic formula that pops the answer out.
It felt so 'american' because I felt the same attitude when they treat computer programs:
'I don't give a shit about what's going on. Some smart asian kid will make me a magic machine that I just need to plug in the numbers and prints the answer, while I focus on making varsity football team next year.'
You can downvote me for my racism though. All excuse I can make is that they also laughed when I told them how their attitude towards math sounded like.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Soviet body builders only used free weights and a pull-up bar. You don’t need anything but that to get big muscles. You may also need steroids, which Soviet body builders definitely used.
If you think only Soviet body builders were juicing, you are sorely mistaken. FYI I am the furthest thing from an ideological defender of the Soviet system as you will find. I am just stating some truths.
Why is that relevant to the discussion? The GP doesn't even mention anything about others. You are the one saying, literally, "Soviet body builders only used free weights and a pull-up bar. You don’t need anything but that to get big muscles." which is patently false (when we talk about "body builder level" big) and then you get defensive when you are called out on it?
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am not very familiar with these schools, I am in CA. I think the biggest factor for me during my high school years was several hours per week of 1-1 discussions with currently active mathematicians and grad students. While formal math is really hard to read, a lot of ideas are very elegant and actually simple. It’s hard to find these ideas in a formal math text, but you can explain a lot of things in 1-1 setting wh…
This is what infuriates me about college level mathematics from about 12 years ago at least. Why can't they also explain it like they do in those 1-1 sessions instead of making calculus textbooks that assume you know set theory before set theory is taught in some of the worst most obtuse writing there is. I'm glad there is khan academy now, but come on.
There are good reasons why formal texts are important but I can’t agree more that this is not a good way to teach math if there is nothing else available. But you also need to learn how to read these texts at the end because this is the way mathematicians communicate to each other ;)
Re 1-1: the biggest advantage is that students can rediscover things. It’s one experience to read or listen to a proof, and it is completely different experience when you discover it yourself with small hints from the teacher.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the reasoning is that the incentives are flipped. Capitalist school gets more money the more you stick around. Communist school spends more money the more you stick around. One has a perverse incentive to get as many people to pass as possible. The other has a perverse incentive to get as many people to fail as possible.
One would think Russia would have demand for strong advanced mathematics professionals, so unclear how failing students might help that. Missing something in the reasoning though, since I get that if you’re giving away something for free, you want to maximize the yield it returns, but still, it does not add up to me. Further, reasoning that American schools get money might hold true for tuition based schools, but my…
I think the point is that Russia's programs isolated those who had a talent/passion for math as opposed to just trying to bring every student to a basic level of understanding. If a student doesn't have the drive/talent/passion for a field, it follows that they will not perform as well in the workforce as their driven/talented/enthusiastic peers.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#156It may be just that Russian style of teaching is more conservative and preserved the way teaching was done in the 1800s.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#157In my high school year in international school(in germany) I've seen many students from diverse backgrounds. I could see balanced number of students taught from their own origin: US, asian or international school itself. One thing I remember until now is that students from US kept using the phrase 'plug-it-in' whenever they substitute values into quadratic formula. Overusing that term made me laugh about their attitu…
"Plug-it-in" is simply jargon for what would more properly be called substitution and reduction. One would use the exact same sort of reasoning when doing "proper" math proofs, so I think your attitude might be a bit misguided - there's no "magic" involved.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#158Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…
Such a program will never happen in America again because some people will complain about privilege-this and equity-that. America is basically living Vonnegut’s Harrison Bergeron already and dooming itself to mediocrity if is doesn’t realize the damage being done and correct things. What happened with NYC’s gifted and talented programs was a perfect example of this idiocy.
Unfortunately, our systems must reflect the fact that our "reluctance" to provide truly equal opportunity in early learning and grade school precludes any claim to meritocracy. We have hobbled ourselves, but not in the way you seem to be imagining: saddled with poverty and anxiety, history and double consciousness, our Harrison Bergerons don't trouble the children of parents terrified of a truly level playing field.
I do agree that we should change that.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#159Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…
Yes! I was about to say something similar about China as well. In China, and maybe other former Communist countries as well, kids with talents or what seems like talents are identified very early on and only those with such aptitudes are given the resources and put on a track to nurture those talents. Same thing with sports too! My guess is that China probably borrowed a lot from the USSR in their programs and philos…
I wonder how much the respective cultures and politico-economic systems of those states play into that.
My dad was similarly hyper-tracked: he entered grade school at 7 and graduated at 16 (he grew up in the Philippines, but as part of the expat Filipino-Chinese community, and went to Chinese schools). When my dad tried similarly hyper-tracking me academically (suburban Boston), I got beat up, physically, by my peers. Having been traumatized into becoming a terrible student, I later found out I did much better economically than many of my more academically-diligent college classmates that ended up getting physics Ph.Ds.
The U.S. is fundamentally an exchange economy: you succeed based on how well you can make other people happy. That privileges EQ and social intelligence over IQ and academic intelligence. The USSR was a command economy, and China was an export economy until very recently. Both of those privilege having specific technical skills in areas that are particularly useful to the state, many of which have mathematics and science as a precursor. It wouldn't surprise me if China starts devaluing academic achievement as it transitions from an export economy to an exchange economy. We're already starting to see it with the fuerdai, the children of the new Chinese rich.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
For the sake of example, how was Soviet Science high school different from Stuyvesant/Brooklyn Tech/Bronx school of Science? (Just to name the ones I know of).
I am not very familiar with these schools, I am in CA. I think the biggest factor for me during my high school years was several hours per week of 1-1 discussions with currently active mathematicians and grad students. While formal math is really hard to read, a lot of ideas are very elegant and actually simple. It’s hard to find these ideas in a formal math text, but you can explain a lot of things in 1-1 setting wh…
I know lots of UC math/cs profs who meet 1-1 with high school students every week. Currently, the process is pretty informal, where local high school students just knock on the doors of professors until one agrees to regular meetings. UC Riverside is in the process of opening up a high school directly on the campus grounds to make the process more formal.