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U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

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Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#151
post #21

‘in moments of crisis, people are willing to hand over a great deal of power to anyone who claims to have a magic cure—whether the crisis is a financial meltdown or, as the Bush administration would later show, a terrorist attack’ (Naomi Klein, The Shock Doctrine)

If the government asked for constant location data in exchange for $1k / month "UBI", most people would take that, and they'd be silly not to because that's likely the highest price their data will ever fetch.

A number of people would probably sell their kidneys, too, for the same reason.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#152
I have just read a German article explaining that Deutsche Telekom provided 5 GB of location data to the Robert Koch Institute.

The data will be analyzed to understand the mobility of German residents.

So it's not real time tracking but it's still tracking.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has already been unwittingly uploading Majority have been doing it unwittingly, true. But you do get services in return. I actually know about the collection, and in case of Google, in my opinion I get compensated in a reasonable way. I'm contributing to wigle and osm as well to counteract the monopoly, but in practice - it's worth it. We could attach some risk to everything and consider what would happen if gov ab…

I don't want to call you out personally, but I absolutely hate how servile this attitude is. Its as if you can't even imagine a world where you get some of these benefits but where your privacy is protected either legally or technically. Both are totally possible, but your lazy attitude about it is part of the problem. One of these days all this data we've just been casually giving out is going to be used for a pogro…

>it will be too late for this facile "the benefits outweigh the costs" bullshit.

No it won't, because the horrible, but realistic, take is that the benefits indeed will outweigh the costs. For all the people who are not targets of the pogroms.

Horrible as it sounds, a lot of people don't really care about things that happen to other people. Even if those other people die. Especially when the other people are not like them.

Sometimes I wonder whether apathy is the true root of evil, not really money. I'm no different, I'm guilty of that tendency towards apathy as well. I'm certainly up in arms about privacy, but I really don't get the same way about women's issues. Nor black guys being gunned down by cops in their apartments. I may lament those situations, but I certainly don't donate money or time to those and other causes.

Point is, root of the issue is that no one cares. Everyone has their own concerns. Which is democracy. And that's great.

But inherent in that environment is a kind of built in "divide and conquer" quality that provides political and economic élites a convenient control mechanism.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#154
post #28

The interesting thing about ideas like this is that they reveal how authoritarianism during times of stability does a terrible amount of damage during times of crisis. This is the sort of problem that could be solved in a better world; collecting location data to find interactions between people would allow you to get them tested faster and prevent a disease from spreading. But it simply can't be done in this country…

> This is the sort of problem that could be solved in a better world; collecting location data to find interactions between people would allow you to get them tested faster

NO. Global data about who interacts with who and where should NOT be available to anyone. Especially NOT to HEALTHCARE orgs, I couldn't imagine less trustworthy and skewed-incentives institutions! At least you can trust that a country's secret service like your NSA would keep most of that data safe (as in "safe even the eyes of from judges & prosecutors unless you have a national security issue" etc.). Like in I'd rather have +10k deaths from preventable contagious diseases per year and take the chance of being amongst them then having this on a wide scale.

> civic trust in our community organizations and institutions was built up over time

You have no reason to trust anyone and anything. Stop doing so.

> a responsible institution

There's no such thing. Any institution should be considered thoroughly corrupted in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

> our secret agencies are actively planning to exploit this

It's their job to do so! If you want to provide solid security in globally connected world the "protectors" need to be a bit above the law - it's OK as long as what they collect stays in their archives and you prevent them from holding political or financial power.

The point is to build societies that can function TRUSTLESSLY and where everything is SECRET BY DEFAULT unless explicitly shared.

That's the only way to have an open society! Sure, in small isolated pockets you can have your "trust" in institutions and stuff.

Otherwise it's a choice between:

(1) accept framework of trustlessness + secrecy-by-default + broad exceptions for security agencies mostly as long as they DON'T share data with anyone (no, not even to "save lives", unless you're taking more than thousands...)

(2) drop the global interconnectedness, drop most free travel and work (I don't mean relocation - you'd also need to drop the kind of temporary travel that can't be easily monitored!), move to a more localist society - here you can have trust in the institutions of your own "pocket" that you voted for yourself.

Unfortunately it seems that the pendulum will now swing towards (2) as you seem to say you prefer - ...too bad, I'm sure we could've made the global-village thing work too :( probably we need to try again when tech advances a few extra steps, eg. neural-interfaces + pervasive-AI + usable distributed financial tech. and use the tech properly to make the openness and interlinking irreversible!

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#155
The conversation is dominated by the fear of gov't abuse. So few point to how successfully South Korea has leveraged their vast surveillance infrastructure to tackle this problem while maintaining a vibrant democracy. (When's the last time the US actually imprisoned a leader? Or even held a powerful person to account without pardon?)

The lack of trust in the US is really disappointing. Americans are so proud of its democracy---yet consistently hate and distrust the government.

I fear at the end of all of this, it'll be like the line at the end of The Big Short: "They will be blaming immigrants and poor people."

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#156
post #28

The interesting thing about ideas like this is that they reveal how authoritarianism during times of stability does a terrible amount of damage during times of crisis. This is the sort of problem that could be solved in a better world; collecting location data to find interactions between people would allow you to get them tested faster and prevent a disease from spreading. But it simply can't be done in this country…

I had this conversation with my dad a month ago, are we not already past the point of no return on this? Can’t the government legally buy purchasing data from credit bureaus and other vendors? Can’t they legally buy location data commercially from at&t and other entities? Don’t they already do it anyways to monitor food shortages etc,?

It’s not a question of can they, but have they yet. Don’t police officers already have access to this data therefore the feds definitely do?

The boom in location based advertising a decade ago was the final nail in this coffin because it made the availability of location tracking data required and highly accessible.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#158

Well, buckle up folks. Android's GLS service has an absolute insane data ingestion pipeline consisting of sensor fusion from GPS, Wifi, accelerometer, barometric data, and cell tower locations. It's accurate to within meters, can locate you inside buildings, can count your footsteps, and even knows what floor you've been on. It's been used by Google to tune its indoor WiFi maps and improve location accuracy for years…

I don't have anything of that shit activated and I am far from alone with this. My GPS is maybe turned on once a year, so probably pretty inconclusive.

The problem is if the try to form conclusions from the data collected that would concern me too.

If more people were aware what data Google collects, I believe far more people would be careful with Google services.

What is true is that Android basically become a shitty OS, something open source should have prevented, but we know how that turned out.

I don't think that I miss anything with opting out of it to be honest.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#159

Well, buckle up folks. Android's GLS service has an absolute insane data ingestion pipeline consisting of sensor fusion from GPS, Wifi, accelerometer, barometric data, and cell tower locations. It's accurate to within meters, can locate you inside buildings, can count your footsteps, and even knows what floor you've been on. It's been used by Google to tune its indoor WiFi maps and improve location accuracy for years…

> has already been unwittingly uploading Majority have been doing it unwittingly, true. But you do get services in return. I actually know about the collection, and in case of Google, in my opinion I get compensated in a reasonable way. I'm contributing to wigle and osm as well to counteract the monopoly, but in practice - it's worth it. We could attach some risk to everything and consider what would happen if gov ab…

The thing is that you can participate in modern society without Google needing to track you. It isn't even hard to imagine.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to call you out personally, but I absolutely hate how servile this attitude is. Its as if you can't even imagine a world where you get some of these benefits but where your privacy is protected either legally or technically. Both are totally possible, but your lazy attitude about it is part of the problem. One of these days all this data we've just been casually giving out is going to be used for a pogro…

> it will be too late for this facile "the benefits outweigh the costs" bullshit. No it won't, because the horrible, but realistic, take is that the benefits indeed will outweigh the costs. For all the people who are not targets of the pogroms. Horrible as it sounds, a lot of people don't really care about things that happen to other people. Even if those other people die. Especially when the other people are not lik…

If blacks or women suffer from state suppression it would be natural to care for privacy too.
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