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What people in tech had to say about JavaScript when it debuted in 1995 (2017)

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Re: What people in tech had to say about JavaScript when it debuted in 1995 (2017)

#151

Post by mntmoss »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #146
TheCycoONE wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With scheme perhaps, but the Lua of 1995 was a much more primitive language which didn't even support closures. It had the opportunity to break backwards compatibility and refine itself numerous times - as the defacto language of the web I think lua would have turned out much poorer rather than the web much better.

Lua is pretty terrible in how barebones it is. I don't think anyone on HN who raves about Lua yet complains about JS has done much work with either. There's a reason it has zero traction beyond embedded application and niche application like Pico8.

That which Lua is missing is primarily in terms of its ability to define clear, succinct algorithms. And in this respect the more Algol-derived languages enjoy a substantial advantage by having readily available tools for the task. Tables are a semantic compromise compared to list, array and map primitives, and the standard library assumes little, making it hard to write "native" Lua without encountering a need for R&D on some dependency.

But when it works in its true intended domain, gluing together and applying configuration to structured APIs and data, it's about as good as it gets, having had the benefit of major revision. And that makes it a stable computing platform, even more stable than the Lisp family(which are like BASIC in that it's quite easy to make an incompatible one). As a side effect, that also makes it an excellent source-to-source target.

But to put it another way: Everyone says they like minimalism until they try to live in it. Everyone who needs minimalism knows its limitations and makes exceptions.

Re: What people in tech had to say about JavaScript when it debuted in 1995 (2017)

#152

Post by weq »

mr_toad wrote: post #132
steego wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do deserve some credit for intentionally introducing that feature to the browser as a standard feature, but the notion of fetching data without reloading the page wasn't novel at all. That's what Java applets and plugins were for. I'm also pretty sure they weren't the first to fetch data from the server without reloading, because people were doing all sorts of novel things in the mid-90s with plugins. The reason…

> Applets and plug-ins were so much more capable. Except that they couldn’t alter the DOM, or handle events on DOM elements, the two things that developers really needed (even if they didn’t know it).

Thats why people wrote Applets. Even if u wanted manipulate the dom (u could), u didnt, because the Applet was so much faster and more feature rich.

Re: What people in tech had to say about JavaScript when it debuted in 1995 (2017)

#153

Post by hombre_fatal »

SoylentOrange wrote: post #76

The article conflates “popular” with “loved”. JS is popular because it’s the only* language in which it’s possible to write browser apps and extensions. The number of people using transpilers for this purpose is minimal. In actual fact, most people try to avoid JS whenever possible, instead using TS or other languages that compile down to JS. Saying people love JavaScript because it’s the most popular is like saying…

Meanwhile, you can use any language on the server yet many of us including myself use Javascript. I'd say modern Javascript is easily one of the best languages.

Re: What people in tech had to say about JavaScript when it debuted in 1995 (2017)

#154

Post by danmg »

pimlottc wrote: post #19
danmg wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was not well liked. The majority of webpages did not use it, or it was used very sparingly for things like form validation. Old versions of IE would have a dialog pop up if there was any kind of error during execution which happened frequently.

I wouldn’t say it was unliked. It enabled image rollovers and people _loved_ those.

People liked the rollovers, not javascript. You'd see people try doing them in flash, shockwave, as java applets, activex controls, and I'm probably missing a few.

If they were done in javascript, the code was heavily cargo-culted and cut and paste.

Re: What people in tech had to say about JavaScript when it debuted in 1995 (2017)

#155

Post by mark-r »

steego wrote: post #111
skinnymuch wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should Microsoft get credit for inventing Ajax and having the first real world functioning example of it?

They do deserve some credit for intentionally introducing that feature to the browser as a standard feature, but the notion of fetching data without reloading the page wasn't novel at all. That's what Java applets and plugins were for. I'm also pretty sure they weren't the first to fetch data from the server without reloading, because people were doing all sorts of novel things in the mid-90s with plugins. The reason…

I remember when Java first came out. It seemed like a new and improved C++ and I was intrigued. When it became clear that it was being positioned as purely an applet language I lost all interest.

Then along came Javascript with its transparent attempt to ride the coattails of Java by adopting a similar name. No interest in that either.

Re: What people in tech had to say about JavaScript when it debuted in 1995 (2017)

#156

Post by thedance »

steego wrote: post #111
skinnymuch wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should Microsoft get credit for inventing Ajax and having the first real world functioning example of it?

They do deserve some credit for intentionally introducing that feature to the browser as a standard feature, but the notion of fetching data without reloading the page wasn't novel at all. That's what Java applets and plugins were for. I'm also pretty sure they weren't the first to fetch data from the server without reloading, because people were doing all sorts of novel things in the mid-90s with plugins. The reason…

What did you need plugins for? Netscape and MSIE both were able to add a script tag to the DOM dynamically, and that was all you needed to build the rest of it.

Re: What people in tech had to say about JavaScript when it debuted in 1995 (2017)

#157

Post by thedance »

bfung wrote: post #149
reflectiv wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complex javascript apps just weren't a thing...hell, it took google writing Gmail (2004) to really show everyone that a large SPA using javascript was even possible. After Gmail...things really started to move in the javascript world...people started to put effort into both the runtimes and the libraries.

It wasn't gmail -- it was google maps that really made everyone look again at javascript. Although MS added XMLHTTPRequest, it took something like google maps that pushed it further than anyone thought at the time to make JS a real thing.

Yeah, gmail was different than other webmail products but its innovation was really on the backend, giving everyone 1000x more quota than Yahoo was giving them. On the other hand the google maps frontend was what really sold it. Up to then you were getting a full page load every time you panned or zoomed mapquest or yahoo maps. Gmail did not eradicate yahoo mail or hotmail. Google maps promptly eradicated mapquest.

Re: What people in tech had to say about JavaScript when it debuted in 1995 (2017)

#158

Post by thedance »

btilly wrote: post #34

JavaScript is a fascinating example of Microsoft successfully getting a giant own goal. The promise of the web was cross platform applications that required no installation. Microsoft's fear was that cross platform applications would make the operating system irrelevant and reduce Windows lock-in. Both Sun (with Java) and Netscape wanted Microsoft's worst fears to happen. This was the era of Embrace-Extend-Extinguish…

Microsoft did a really great job of making MSIE a platform, too, with active scripting you could write browser programs in REXX or Tcl. It was really wide open.

Re: What people in tech had to say about JavaScript when it debuted in 1995 (2017)

#160

Post by cronix »

I'm sure they would all love how far it's gotten. Like, on the Medium site that we're reading this on, how they help google track you with JS by using google sign on nagging you every damn time you visit to sign in with whatever account you're currently signed into google in, in any of their services.
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