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Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

greece.greekreporter.com

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Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#151

Post by dependenttypes »

kriberg wrote: post #140
dependenttypes wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The population is not the one who adopts the economic policies. The government is.

Governments are elected by the population. Are they then not responsible for their choices?

The elected party in Greece only got 40% of the votes and they can pass any law and take any decision at will. In addition to that pretty much every party that was elected in the past had been caught lying regarding most things that they said regarding the economy (and not only). People should certainly be responsible for their choices, but this was not one of them.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#153

Post by rumanator »

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6
tasubotadas wrote: post #4

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge.

I completely disagree. We should expect these meetings to be held in a manner where participants should not be pressured away from doing the right thing due to concerns on how what they might say behind closed doors could be used as a political weapon to attack them. This asshole move from Varoufakis is a clear example, because this leak is designed to attack any political opponent that didn't simply rolled over to meet his personal demands.

This whole stunt is even more egregious if we consider that this boils down to a self-promotion stunt from someone desperately grabbing at their spotlight to manage to get some attention.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#154

Post by atmosx »

tasubotadas wrote: post #16
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

Well, I kinda do not like Varoufakis, because he came off as an entitled know-it-all prick (a not so rare trait in academia). He made lots of bold claims but in the end, nothing really got accomplished. EDIT: Regarding the fact that the public deserves to know, I disagree. The public can act completely irrationally against its own interests under FUD (I guess we have some recent examples from the UK and the US), and…

> He made lots of bold claims but in the end, nothing really got accomplished.

Depends on the perspective I guess. I believe he accomplished a lot, as he raised the awareness on how the EU is run indirectly by an unaccountable group of politicians serving specific interests. It's no small feat.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#155

Post by mempko »

tasubotadas wrote: post #37
mempko wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what's a shitty move? What the euogroup did to greece and other countries.

I grew up in a country that joined the EU and boomed afterwards. We had the same crisis and probably even worse austerity measures than Greece after the 2008 crisis and some politicians are still in a tough spot until this day. In all aspects, Greece was in much better shape before the 2008 crisis than Lithuania. Now Lithuania has a higher GDP per capita than Greece. How did that happen? But never once, anyone in pub…

Counterexample. After WW2 Germany asked US and other creditors to forgive it's debts because otherwise they won't be able to grow their economy and were at risk of further becoming under the influence of the USSR.

You know what the creditors did? They forgave Germany's debts.

So the question is, when Greece made the same argument to Germany, that it can't grow their economy under austerity, why did the Germans refuse to forgive its debts?

You blame the Greek people but it was the German and French banks that lent Greece the money. Why didn't the banks do their du-diligence and refuse to give the loans?

So when Greece got the bailout money, that money went straight back into the German and French banks and left the Greek people holding the bag.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#156

Post by paxswill »

occamrazor wrote: post #112
fifnir wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NY private banks lend money to Mississippi banks. At some later point, the global market crashes and NY ""suddenly discovers"" that Mississippi officials lied about the state's finances. NY now wants their money back in the middle of a world-wide crisis. Mississippi banks can't pay. Should we force the (next generation of) citizens of Mississippi (who didn't personally lie about anything) to pay all this debt for the…

US states are forbidden (with some exceptions and loopholes) from issuing debt. I would guess that one of the main reasons why this limitation has never been lifted is exactly to avoid a situation like the one you describe. The Puerto Rico debt crisis has shown that this is not a purely theoretical concern.

Actually curious on this, my knowledge of financial theory is sorely lacking. To my understanding, states can (and do) issue debt through municipal bonds. Is this one of those “exceptions and loopholes”? My understanding of the Puerto Rican debt crisis is that their bonds were made more attractive because income from their bonds is tax exempt by federal law from most US income taxes. By (artificially) increasing the attractiveness of those bonds PR was able to borrow more money than they would otherwise.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#157

Post by mempko »

smallnamespace wrote: post #62
lucianoq wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. They are deciding about life and death of people of a country (or many). They're not discussing about what's your favourite food and which sex position you like the most. Those conversation MUST be open and public, so people can judge the work of their delegates and decide to vote them again or not. If you don't want to be heard, don't…

On the other hand, organizations that are able to keep their internal deliberations private have a strong advantage over ones who must ‘think’ openly. Imagine negotiating with an employer, except your inner monologue is always spoken aloud. One unintended (?) consequence of extreme transparency for governments, is that it makes government ineffective and easily subverted or outmaneuvered by opaque organizations, like…

Democratic institutions must be transparent. But of course, the eurogroup is NOT a democratic organization. It makes you wonder why an unaccountable organization like the ECB was allowed so much power.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#158

Post by rumanator »

frandroid wrote: post #43
CarelessExpert wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I honestly don't think it's that simple. While decisions should always be public, in order to come to reasonable compromises on issues, it can be valuable for leaders to be able to have closed-door conversations outside of the spotlight, where they don't have to engage in political grandstanding; after all, it's that kind of comp…

It's been 5 years, and the Eurogroup destroyed the Greek economy. I don't think it's unfair to now reveal the contents of these discussions. It's high time to see if it was corruption, or compromise, which happened.

> It's been 5 years, and the Eurogroup destroyed the Greek economy.

Reality and the facts contrast heavily with this rhetoric. The eurogroup/IMF/european commission only stepped into the picture way after Greece bankrupted itself and digged a deep economic and social hole. Complaining about the organizations that mitigated Greece's pending collapse is like complaining about the cast and crutches you had to use after breaking your leg just because your leg hurts.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#159

Post by 317070 »

mrtksn wrote: post #80
317070 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you do get this correct. It is the bank's responsibility to assign its loans properly. That's the risk they take and why they get to collect an interest. Maybe watch this video of David Graeber from start until 5:20, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZIINXhGDcs He makes the point more clearly. I mean, do I get this correct? Would you say that when people need to pay their debts, the bank gets to enforce measur…

There are numerous studies about the positive effects of being rich and have the easy life, including studies showing that the richer you are the lesser child mortality you get. You can argue that if that money was not given in first place is just as bad as asking it back. I am sure the poorer EU countries would also lower their mortality rates if they were given the free check. What's special about Greece, why Roman…

Your argument is that those children in Greece deserved to die because children in Romania are dying too? I am not convinced by that argument.

What is going on here is that debt in the current financial system is at conflict with current moral standards. Debt is being transferred from parents to children (mostly in the form of state debt), while defaults are being pushed almost exclusively on the the debtor from the debtee. The consequence is that there are a lot of people being punished for events outside of their control.

Yeah, when a debt cannot be filled, debtor and debtee need to share the consequences proportionally. And in the case of Greece, the 30% haircut is not remotely proportional.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#160

Post by SuoDuanDao »

CarelessExpert wrote: post #19
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I honestly don't think it's that simple. While decisions should always be public, in order to come to reasonable compromises on issues, it can be valuable for leaders to be able to have closed-door conversations outside of the spotlight, where they don't have to engage in political grandstanding; after all, it's that kind of comp…

I think that was true once upon a time, but the politicians seem as caught up in the partisanship as the voters these days. I also think an awful lot of confidentiality is abused or, in less extreme cases, simply reduces public engagement. I'd like to see the sausage-making being a lot more open, and the public becoming more tolerant of imperfections in our elected officials. Naive as that may seem, it actually seems more achievable to me than that the political class becomes less dysfunctional in the absence of any consistent oversight.
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