The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church • Hacker News Board

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#151

Post by sturgill » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

darksaints wrote: post #111

darkerside wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moneymakers in the temple were making money for themselves, profiting off of the nominally faithful. This is very different from saying the church shouldn't acquire wealth.

The Mormon church tried for years to pretend that their leaders don't make money from the church. That too was confirmed as a lie not too long ago.

Find me the executive team of a multimillion person company with hundreds of billions of assets making the living stipend of the (relatively few) ecclesiastical leaders of the Church and your argument will have more weight.

IIRC, the living stipend for members of the Twelve was around $100k? Or less than the salary of an intern at Google...

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#152

Post by mattrp » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

mythrwy wrote: post #119

mattrp wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my view I think you would say this also about Bill gates... who are you to define what is a reasonable amount? I think a tax policy based on “reasonable” confiscation is not very sound or sustainable and probably worse policy than allowing churches to collect money tax free. At the same time there are laws in the US at least about how charities must use their cash and if they’ve broken these laws it would be a ver…

Let's leave off the hostilities and spurious accusations please. Your confiscation point is valid. I don't know that is an equitable solution because private people did pay into the program at one point. I suppose what I'd like to see is religions limited to some multiple of working annual budget in assets. This avoids an entire set of perverse negative incentives. Grandfather it in and prevent further investment or…

Fair enough I enjoy my relative anonymity here too. The whistleblowers do allege that the profits from investing have not been charitably distributed. But the issue in my meager understanding is not the amounts, it’s whether lds is acting charitably in its totality and I believe that’s fairly undeniable even considering the other controversies mentioned above. But let’s see...

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#153

Post by zmix » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

One of my favorite passages from the New Testament is this:

  Matthew 19:16-30 New International Version (NIV)[1]
  
  The Rich and the Kingdom of God

  16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing
  must I do to get eternal life?”

  17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One
  who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

  18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

  Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you
  shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 

  19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

  20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

  21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and
  give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow
  me.”

  22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great
  wealth.

  23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for
  someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 

  24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of 
  a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

  25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked,
  “Who then can be saved?”

  26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God
  all things are possible.”

  27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then
  will there be for us?”

  28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when
  the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will
  also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 

  29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother 
  or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as
  much and will inherit eternal life. 

  30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

This is what comes to my mind each time when I hear about people, who call themselves Christians and their love for property.

[1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19%3A16...

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#154

Post by adaisadais » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

xtracto wrote: post #142

zippie wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this quoted a lot whenever there is discussion of wealth. However, as with all verses, the context is important as well as the follow up verses. This is not in defense of. 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you…

As an atheist I love reading these passages.. it is amazing how people in this day and age are trying to find "meanings" from a book full of the stories of one person... who lived 2000+ years ago.. imagine if someone tried to find meaning in Beckhams biography 2000 years from now...

I guess you could say the same about people that look to stoicism or people that believe in res publica.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#155

Post by adaisadais » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #144

adaisadais wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of what the Mormon Church teaches is not based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Mormonism and Christianity are two separate things much like Christianity and Judaism are separate.

This is true of virtually every religion under the Christian umbrella.

Yes, I’m asserting that they are mutually exclusive.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#156

Post by umvi » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

> It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact.

This is definitely not true. It may have been the case for you, but my dad and brother/wife all left years ago without any problems at all. We are still on great terms.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#157

Post by walrus01 » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

x1oqw wrote: post #19

tomrod wrote: post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?

If anybody asks you "what would Jesus do?", remind them that turning over tables and whipping money lenders is within the realm of possibility.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#158

Post by lotsofityetnone » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 4:30 PM UTC

Ididntdothis wrote: post #130

hpoe wrote: post #63

Many have been asking what the Church does with the money it has. The official response can be found here https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-of-j... In addition this is the official response of the Church in reply to an almost identical story that ran not too long ago https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presi...

I bet there are some people in the background who make tons of money through contracts as suppliers . Seems this happens with most big non profits.

You bet or do you know? Just sounds like you're accusing people without any proof.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#159

Post by starskublue » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 4:30 PM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #109

rrss wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clay Christensen was referring to one of the Ten Commandments - "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." I don't think many religions count churches not paying taxes as sins. Incidentally, Christensen almost certainly contributed a rather significant amount of money to this sum, and likely would have said it would be a sin not to have done so. "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have w…

Note the irony that the scripture you quote was given to the priests, who were benefiting from the tithes and offerings of the nation [akin to the Mormon church giving luxurious homes to their General Authorities and plum book deals through Deseret Book], not the people themselves. Tithing got re-defined over the years. Consider: https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too...

Do you really think former heart surgeons and company executives are making more money now on the general authority stipend than before?

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#160

Post by tomrod » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 4:32 PM UTC

sturgill wrote: post #107

Can you imagine the criticism if the investment arm was losing money? The Church does amazing work providing resources during crises. I’ve personally cut trees off of people’s houses with chainsaws provided by the Church and given buckets of sanitation supplies when hurricanes swept through Florida. There is always a tension in “what do you spend now and what do you invest for later” but I honesty feel like the Churc…

> I’m pretty comfortable assuming he would have made more money in his life had he not accepted a calling to full-time ministry.

Two comments.

[1] The Mormon church is a corporation sole, meaning presently Nelson is the sole controller of all assets. He could reasonably set up his family for life with beneficial contacts and contracts. That is worth more than (now probably expired) intellectual property associated with open-heart surgery.

[2] The leadership of the Mormon church tends to come from the same set of Utah-based families. Not 100%, but certainly a high representation. It's a social network that has been extractive on the work and labor of their membership for over a century, benefiting these few families greatly. This doesn't mean the organization hasn't done good -- it has. It's just that good doesn't blot out bad, nefarious, negligence, or other societal negatives.