Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#151

Post by sokoloff » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:36 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #118

toasterlovin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave. The asymmetry of experience is actually caused by child bearing, which can only be done by women. Maternal leave is downstream from that.

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is s…

> mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is some sort of "vacation"

I don't think employers think or care that it's a "vacation" (the experience of the person taking the leave) but rather that it's "paid time off" (the experience of the business paying the leave).

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#152

Post by ackshually » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:36 PM UTC

dudul wrote: post #88

wincy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious what what happen if someone wanted to have ten kids and abused this system, and the mother didn’t work. At a gut I feel like I’d be less likely to have kids, not more, if I felt like I was burdening other people by accepting benefits like this. I have no worries as an American having as many kids as I want because I make a good salary, can afford them, and won’t take more than a weeks, maybe two weeks tim…

The goal is probably more to reach equal pay/opportunity as opposed to any population growth agenda. When I was in the EU, I knew a woman who had 4 kids, each ~1/1.5 year appart. So she would have a kid, be out 6 month, go back to work for 6 month, have another kid, rinse and repeat 4 times :) . It was a total nightmare for her employer because they couldn't let her go, and they couldn't hire anyone permanently to do…

Could you imagine if you had a really important job you needed doing and the person you hired pulled this. Honestly I'd probably "Expand the team" of people doing the job to two, get the not-a-replacement up to speed and just chalk it up to the cost of doing business that people can play the system like this.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#153

Post by mrlala » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:36 PM UTC

sgt wrote: post #3

Seems a bit bizarre seeing that mothers in most cases will need to spend more time with their babies. After all, there are certain things like breastfeeding that only a mother can do.

>Seems a bit bizarre seeing that mothers in most cases will need to spend more time with their babies

And in those cases the mother needs extreme support. Like a father around to help her out with all the little things constantly and to give her a break.

It seems fairly bizarre that you think caring for a newborn is a 1 person job no problem!

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#154

Post by tathougies » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:37 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #65

conanbatt wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless dad also pumps, it doesn't...

Mother pumps, stores milk in the fridge. Father feds the kid when mother is not home.

Yes so mom has work of feeding and pumping and dad just gets to feed. Completely unequal

That and half the benefit of breastfeeding comes from direct suckling. I will never understand dads who want to feed their kid so much that they make mom pump. Fathers have been close to their children for millennia before we decided in the last century that they need to feed their newborns too. Its okay if you and mom are not the same... Your baby certainly doesnt see you that way

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#155

Post by sandos » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:37 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #112

dragonwriter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After all, there are certain things like breastfeeding Mother's can and do express milk to be fed to babies in bottles; the fact that a baby is on breastmilk doesn't require the mother to be with them 24/7, and formula is a thing that exists. What other things are there?

Formula that adjusts formulation every day by detecting the chemical balance of the baby during nursing does not exist yet (ever? It’s an interesting biology challenge).

I dont think a lot of people claim that the mother isnt most important for, at the very leasy, the first 6 months and up to 12 months. I took my leave at about 14-15 months age, and that was more or less perfect in my mind.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#156

Post by kraigie » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:37 PM UTC

sgt wrote: post #77

dragonwriter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After all, there are certain things like breastfeeding Mother's can and do express milk to be fed to babies in bottles; the fact that a baby is on breastmilk doesn't require the mother to be with them 24/7, and formula is a thing that exists. What other things are there?

I would assume that there is some kind of maternal bond, so that it would be best for the mother to primarily be exposed to the newborn at least in the first 6-12 months. I doubt sucking on a plastic bottle would assist with the maternal bond. What do you think?

I think this is why evolution gave men nipples.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#157

Post by TallGuyShort » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:37 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

But will they force Dads to take it? As a Dad who had two kids, I would much rather pay for childcare than take paternity leave. Would someone like me be held back artificially to promote equality? EDIT: Not a freak, don't care for the infant stage. Happy to dote when they start to turn into people.

You'd be surprised how quickly they start turning into people by doing things like, you know, bonding with other human beings.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#158

Post by codingmess » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:38 PM UTC

ryanmercer wrote: post #136

sudoaza wrote: post #2

Germany has this and is awesome. 14 months paid leave to distribute among the two parents.

(edit: why is this -2? I was asking a serious question!) >14 months paid leave Certainly you meant weeks... FMLA only covers 12 weeks of unpaid leave here in the United States.

Nope - it really is about 20000€ the government gives to families.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#159

Post by socialdemocrat » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:38 PM UTC

willis936 wrote: post #138

blub wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under Finland's system mother are still given maternal leave, but the fathers now get mandatory leave too. That's how I understood it, no country would forbid the mother maternal leave, except maybe the US.

So then why would men be entitled to paternal leave? Because another sex is given leave?

If would be say the first 6 months the mother takes leave while the next 6 months the father takes leave, for a total of 12 months.

It just means they share the burden and benefits. What exactly is wrong with that?

I cannot say I understand your "entitled" question. Is anyone in principle entitled to anything? Does it matter? Why not simply do what works great? Does doing something need to have any other reason than that it works great and everybody is happy about the result?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#160

Post by swozey » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:39 PM UTC

ryanmercer wrote: post #126

I know I'm going to be downvoted and already regret deciding to share this but... I've never understood parental leave. If I want to go on a vacation, I have to plan for that and save time to use for it. If you want to have a child, you should have to plan to save your time to take and spend with the child or be in a financial place where one parent can quit their job to stay with the child. It's not like you go to s…

Because most people can't go on a 6 month vacation no matter what the circumstance. And this is a much more critical event to another persons development than going to see Macchu Picchu.

And I'm saying this as someone with no kids, but I did have the displeasure of growing up with my family overseas at various wars throughout my childhood.