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Why Lobste.rs Is Better Than Hacker News

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Re: Why Lobste.rs Is Better Than Hacker News

#151

Post by slg »

dang wrote: post #144
slg wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have complained about this to moderators before. There are certain topics that are almost off limits on HN not due to the rules, but due to the heavy flagging they always receive. Articles by, about, and for women are one common example. These articles being flagged results in this community being pulled further into a dangerous realm of misogyny that already exist in some pockets of the tech world. EDIT: Another e…

HN has hosted countless threads about gender issues and articles by, about, and for women. Here is one from two days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22128385 . Some get flagged; sometimes we turn off the flags, especially when the article contains substantive information and isn't primarily a sensational piece. This is by no means an under-represented topic on this site in relative terms. You may feel that…

Isn't the fact that you regularly have to turn off the flags on these articles a sign that these articles get unnecessarily flagged? And even when you do unflag articles, sometimes it is just too late to rescue. For example, this article was flagged. You unflagged it, but by now it is page 8 instead of number 1 on the front page like it was when I saw it.

EDIT: This comment received two downvotes within 3 minutes of me posting. It is a comment buried half way down the comment section on a post that is 8 pages deep on HN. That type of immediate reaction seems strange and as a user it would be helpful to know whether something I said is unfit for this community or if there is some other reason for that reaction. Requiring users explain themselves for this behavior provides some immediate value for me on this comment.

Re: Why Lobste.rs Is Better Than Hacker News

#152

Post by tptacek »

ColinWright wrote: post #148
dang wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would lead to a ton of comments saying why they had flagged or downvoted things. Such comments tend to be of low quality and (if people could reply) would lead to endless bickering. IMO it's much better for signal/noise ratio not to go there. I once spoke to the creator of a much larger forum than HN, who told me the biggest mistake they made was to add a meta facility to the site.

I think the idea is that when you flag or downvote you have to provide a comment on the action, and that comment is then displayed when someone asks for a list of downvotes and/or flags. Those comments are not part of the regular comment system, and one can't reply to them. It's what happens on Lobsters, but whether or not it makes a difference is hard to say. The traffic is small enough that I doubt the effect is pr…

Right, but however you expose that information, aren't you just providing nucleation sites for meta-debates? This is a site that practically begs users to generate opinions about everything; you can't even pick the background color for your blog post without potentially sparking a 10-comment subthread about it. Off-topic meta arguments are arguably the biggest problem comment threads on HN have.

Re: Why Lobste.rs Is Better Than Hacker News

#153

Post by ColinWright »

tptacek wrote: post #152
ColinWright wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea is that when you flag or downvote you have to provide a comment on the action, and that comment is then displayed when someone asks for a list of downvotes and/or flags. Those comments are not part of the regular comment system, and one can't reply to them. It's what happens on Lobsters, but whether or not it makes a difference is hard to say. The traffic is small enough that I doubt the effect is pr…

Right, but however you expose that information, aren't you just providing nucleation sites for meta-debates? This is a site that practically begs users to generate opinions about everything; you can't even pick the background color for your blog post without potentially sparking a 10-comment subthread about it. Off-topic meta arguments are arguably the biggest problem comment threads on HN have.

Agreed.

Re: Why Lobste.rs Is Better Than Hacker News

#154

Post by dang »

slg wrote: post #151
dang wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN has hosted countless threads about gender issues and articles by, about, and for women. Here is one from two days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22128385 . Some get flagged; sometimes we turn off the flags, especially when the article contains substantive information and isn't primarily a sensational piece. This is by no means an under-represented topic on this site in relative terms. You may feel that…

Isn't the fact that you regularly have to turn off the flags on these articles a sign that these articles get unnecessarily flagged? And even when you do unflag articles, sometimes it is just too late to rescue. For example, this article was flagged. You unflagged it, but by now it is page 8 instead of number 1 on the front page like it was when I saw it. EDIT: This comment received two downvotes within 3 minutes of…

It's a sign that moderation mechanisms and user mechanisms sometimes produce different outcomes, which is true of every aspect of HN, and is why moderation is necessary in the first place. I wouldn't draw specific conclusions about gender issues from that. Gender is a well-represented topic on HN, and has been for years. Some people feel it should be more so, some less so; that is also the case for every prominent topic, and doubly so for divisive ones.

We didn't unflag this article. We turned off the software penalty called the flamewar detector.

There's nothing odd about your comment being downvoted. Other users are still reading this thread just like we are. As for why they downvoted, perhaps they felt you were prosecuting the point in a repetitive way, or that the discussion has gotten too meta. Those things attract downvotes because they quickly get uninteresting.

Re: Why Lobste.rs Is Better Than Hacker News

#155

Post by ta999999171 »

mr_woozy wrote: post #129
digitalsushi wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that when our reputations are on the line, that we act much better but also discard the grit and sharp edges that are the catalyst for interest and growth. I believe that we begin to converge on a single, aggregate pseudo-personality that is the most accepted register for communicating within. Karma points enable this convergence because they are the only metric that we can do data analysis on comment quality…

you've accidentally hit on a strategy that might work well. Have a site with one public user account that is linked to a reputation and a shadow one created simultanously for snark / sharp riposte's / unpopular opinions.

Can confirm.

Re: Why Lobste.rs Is Better Than Hacker News

#156

Post by slg »

dang wrote: post #154
slg wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the fact that you regularly have to turn off the flags on these articles a sign that these articles get unnecessarily flagged? And even when you do unflag articles, sometimes it is just too late to rescue. For example, this article was flagged. You unflagged it, but by now it is page 8 instead of number 1 on the front page like it was when I saw it. EDIT: This comment received two downvotes within 3 minutes of…

It's a sign that moderation mechanisms and user mechanisms sometimes produce different outcomes, which is true of every aspect of HN, and is why moderation is necessary in the first place. I wouldn't draw specific conclusions about gender issues from that. Gender is a well-represented topic on HN, and has been for years. Some people feel it should be more so, some less so; that is also the case for every prominent to…

You really aren't going to admit that there is any abuse of the flagging system? Either way, at one point this article said [Flagged] in front of it and now it doesn't. Can articles reach that flagged state from purely the flame war detector?

I disagree about the gender thing and I'm not the only person to mention that specifically in this comment thread, but I recognize arguing that point isn't going to get us anywhere.

My point in that edit was that it is strange to see immediate and strong reaction on a comment that is buried so deeply. There are different expectations for a comment here compared to something on the front page in which many users are likely to see it as soon as it is posted. I have mentioned this to you before, but I think constructive feedback is important if you want people to actually become better community members here. Both you and I are left wondering why my comment received a negative response and I therefore have no direction on how to improve my comments.

Re: Why Lobste.rs Is Better Than Hacker News

#157

Post by laumars »

dang wrote: post #143
slg wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not suggesting we remove the ability to downvote or flag. I still want the community to decide most of these things. I simply want more accountability for these actions so they aren't used for petty reasons. You would be free to flag this post for causing a comment section full of garbage. You would just have to say that rather than flagging and moving on.

That would lead to a ton of comments saying why they had flagged or downvoted things. Such comments tend to be of low quality and (if people could reply) would lead to endless bickering. IMO it's much better for signal/noise ratio not to go there. I once spoke to the creator of a much larger forum than HN, who told me the biggest mistake they made was to add a meta facility to the site.

I respect your position but I don't agree with your conclusions:

> That would lead to a ton of comments saying why they had flagged or downvoted things. Such comments tend to be of low quality

It's only low quality if the reasons for down voting are low quality and since the purpose of forced replies is to weed out low quality moderation, I think the ends justify the means.

> and (if people could reply) would lead to endless bickering.

People already bicker about the moderation. Constantly. What I'd hope to see it fewer people impulsively moderating posts. Which might have the ironic effect of reducing some of the complaints.

Obviously those who have a tendency to bicker will likely continue to do so but that will be little change to what they're already doing now.

> I once spoke to the creator of a much larger forum than HN, who told me the biggest mistake they made was to add a meta facility to the site.

That may also turn out to be true for HN but equally it may not. Every forum and community is different so what works in one place might not work in another -- and visa versa. As it is, the quality of comments have and peer moderation has already been on a downwards trajectory for a few years now so it's probably worth trying some new ideas to see if it does shake the less confident yet still experienced engineers back into contributing thoughtful posts.

Re: Why Lobste.rs Is Better Than Hacker News

#158

Post by laumars »

detaro wrote: post #145
laumars wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not on lobste.rs either and if that's their system then that's not entirely what I had in mind. I'd want voting to be first class comments. That way bad moderation surfaces quickly and can be moderated on itself -- thus pushing the abuser below the threshold for access to negative voting. One thing I think HN does really nicely is that you cannot down vote someone who's replied to your comment. Only 3rd parties c…

Has the downside though that now a genuinely bad comment takes much more space in the comment section, because of all the comments necessary to justify its downvotes, and all the comments arguing with those comments (I'd expect that to descend into flamewars very quickly).

That is certainly one possible outcome. However HN already supports tools to minimize the pain there via comment folding and/or hiding down voted comments (the option for that is in your profile).

Optimistically speaking another outcome is also possible, fewer people feel the need to down vote comments so topics where people are using moderation to suppress an unpopular opinion (rather than moderate an objectively bad comment) might see fewer flamewars.

Of course incorrect posts should still receive moderation but this also ensures that errors are accompanied with corrections -- which doesn't always happen at the moment.

HN's moderation system certainly isn't the worst I've seen. Far far from it!! But I do think now is a golden opportunity to review it's moderation system to see if any tweaks could enhance the experience. Doing nothing is sometimes just as bad as doing the wrong thing. :)

Re: Why Lobste.rs Is Better Than Hacker News

#159

Post by laumars »

dghughes wrote: post #138
chrisdsaldivar wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another reason for requiring feedback for downvoting is so others know why it was downvoted. There have been many times where I’ve seen a dead comment on a topic I’m not familiar. I know the general user disagrees with that statement but I have no idea what’s “wrong” with it. Conceivably it’s because it’s obviously wrong to anyone in that domain so nobody bothers commenting or it’s a contentious issue in that domain…

>Another reason for requiring feedback for downvoting is so others know why it was downvoted That will just lead to bickering. And really if that's the rule then you should also be forced to make a meaningful comment when upvoting. I find that there are times to downvote that don't or shouldn't require a comment. It will just spiral into a comment war tit for tat comments spiraling down into a hundred levels.

> I find that there are times to downvote that don't or shouldn't require a comment. It will just spiral into a comment war tit for tat comments spiraling down into a hundred levels.

I'd be interesting to hear some examples. The only instances that sprung to my mind were instances where posts probably should be flagged instead anyway. However I'm open to the possibility I've overlooked some scenarios (as well as the possibility that flagging might get abused as a way of voting without commenting)

Re: Why Lobste.rs Is Better Than Hacker News

#160

Post by slg »

dang wrote: post #154
slg wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the fact that you regularly have to turn off the flags on these articles a sign that these articles get unnecessarily flagged? And even when you do unflag articles, sometimes it is just too late to rescue. For example, this article was flagged. You unflagged it, but by now it is page 8 instead of number 1 on the front page like it was when I saw it. EDIT: This comment received two downvotes within 3 minutes of…

It's a sign that moderation mechanisms and user mechanisms sometimes produce different outcomes, which is true of every aspect of HN, and is why moderation is necessary in the first place. I wouldn't draw specific conclusions about gender issues from that. Gender is a well-represented topic on HN, and has been for years. Some people feel it should be more so, some less so; that is also the case for every prominent to…

Did my other comment here legitimately get flagged? I am supremely confused by that. I guess you could read that first sentence as rude, but that hardly seems flagging worthy. I also have no idea if that is even the reason it was flagged because flagging requires no justification on HN.

Dang, do you see how that flagged comment reinforces my point?

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