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Medications that change who we are

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Re: Medications that change who we are

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your mind and your body are the same thing. That is incorrect, but unfortunately a very common misunderstanding. The mind is highly correlated with the brain but it is not the brain. It’s easy to see this is the case because the brain is made up of a qualitatively different material than the mind. While the brain is composed of biological cells / chemistry / atoms, the mind is composed of things like sense-percepti…

Your argument falls apart where you claim something is abundantly clear, when you can't even clearly describe what you think is abundantly clear. You're claiming red light isn't the perception of red. I can be on board with those semantics, but they are just semantics. In that case, I'd say the phenomenon described by the terms is that red light is the electromagnetic radiation in the long range of the visible spectr…

Is it not abundantly clear that a photon is just a photon? What else could it be?

> the perception of red is the chemical cascade starting with the stimulation of L-cones and ending with the firing of neurons in the visual cortex.

So this quote illustrates the gist of your thinking, but I think you've got some muddled terms. For you there is "red light" and "the perception of red". So for you:

"red light" is the photon & "the perception of red" is the chemical cascade.

Whereas, I would break it down as follows:

"red light" is the photon as well - ie a photon with wavelength between 620-750nm (though I'd caution that despite calling this photon "red light", there is in fact no "red" associated with it - except that it can cause the perception of red if it hits and excites specific cone cells at back our eyes, but it is still just a photon, albiet with a specific energy level but the point is this photon has no quality "red")

Where we differ is I believe:

The chemical cascade is the chemical cascade & "the perception of red" is "the perception of red"

So I think the real problem with your understanding of this is your confusing the chemical cascade caused by a 620-750nm photon to be "the perception of red".

In a sense, you are claiming that this chemical cascade is 2 things: 1: a chemical cascade and 2: the perception of red (i.e. the subjective sensation of looking at red); whereas, I would say the chemical cascade is just a chemical cascade... that's all it is, because of course chemicals can't be chemicals AND sense perceptions - that's the real incorrect leap of faith in your argument.

I believe it makes much more sense to consider sense perceptions to be a separate distinct phenomenon. You say that I have yet to present an observable phenomenon that is clearly in the mind, but just imagine a red triangle, boom there you have it - that red triangle only exists in the mind. Sure, in the brain there's electrochemical activity within the visual cortex, but you won't find a red triangle in there, because the red triangle is made up of fundamentally different material - i.e. the sense-perception of red in the shape of a triangle. Now, I have no idea what red actually is, except that I know it is a qualitatively different material than the brain and is fundamentally irreducible.

If you still disagree with this, tell me where is the red triangle? Because I think it's patently absurd to say the red triangle IS a chemical cascade in your brain. No, it's not. It's highly correlated with a chemical cascade in your brain, but it is an objectively distinct and separate entity/object; it's simply made of qualitatively different material than the brain. Ultimately, as I said before, I believe you're confusing 2 correlated processes/things for a single process/thing: the chemical cascade and the sense-perception.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#152
post #11

It's a worrying thought. My dad has become much less empathetic and more bitter over the past decade. I'd assumed it might have been the pain that was at least partially responsible, now I'm wondering if its actually the painkillers

[deleted]

Re: Medications that change who we are

#153

>"It turns out many ordinary medications don’t just affect our bodies – they affect our brains." I feel like perpetuating this mindset is the ultimate sin of modern psychiatry and the entire industry of psychiatric pharmaceuticals - your brain is your body. It's not some special thing that sits apart from it. It is an integral part of the whole, no different than your kidneys or liver. People think they can take an a…

I think the problem goes at least as far back as Plato and the allegory of the cave. Plato spread this concept that there was a difference between the body and mind or soul, and Western culture has never really recovered from the stupidity of that idea. There's really no evidence or justification for it. Your mind and your body are the same thing.

My Python code ultimately runs on a circuit, but it feels lacking to say that my program is the circuitry. The program itself only has meaning inside of my mind, and in fact could exist equally well on paper. It exists conceptually even if it never manifests physically. So where do concepts like this exist, given that they don't exist as matter? What do we mean when we say that something like 1+1=2 is true - that that truth exists - and would exist even if there wasn't any matter to have 1 and 1 of?

The more you look at it, the more it looks like truths and ideas are even realer than the material world. After all, the only thing we know of the material world is what we experience of it in our mind. That was Plato's point, that the material world is a shadow of the real, immaterial world of thoughts, ideas, and truths.

Similar argument patterns permeate most ancient philosophies. The meme is that mind is the ultimate reality, of which the materialistic worldview is a surprisingly fragile inverse.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#154

>"It turns out many ordinary medications don’t just affect our bodies – they affect our brains." I feel like perpetuating this mindset is the ultimate sin of modern psychiatry and the entire industry of psychiatric pharmaceuticals - your brain is your body. It's not some special thing that sits apart from it. It is an integral part of the whole, no different than your kidneys or liver. People think they can take an a…

Yes. The word "psychosomatic" exists for a reason.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#155
post #140
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“perpetuating this mindset is the ultimate sin of modern psychiatry and the entire industry of psychiatric pharmaceuticals” O-kaaaay. But, as the science kids all say: [Citation required] (Please note Scopie’s Law is now in full effect.)

>Citation required https://youtu.be/twhvtzd6gXA >"Depression may be related to an imbalance of natural chemicals between nerve cells in the brain. Prescription Zoloft works to correct this imbalance."

So, sharks selling surboards. Not exactly PubMed though, is it?

Re: Medications that change who we are

#156
post #2

I’d be curious to hear the experiences of people who take/have taken some of these drugs such as L-dopa. With alcohol, I feel different but I don’t feel like a different person. Is it like that, or is there a larger feeing of difference?

My brother was diagnosed with PD in his early 30's (mid 50's now). He was on a bunch of drugs, but the one that really fucked him was Mirapex. Turns out, there are huge numbers of people whose lives have been ruined by it. It is also used for restless leg syndrome and you can find forums on the internet where spouses of people taking Mirapex will recount how their partners lots fortunes to gambling and other addictions.

My brother went from being pretty wealthy to homeless in 7 years.

His personality was greatly changed by the meds or PD. It's not clear, but the side effects of Mirapex are very clear. It is criminal that that drug is handed out like candy, without any discussion of the potential problems it creates.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#157
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way did your personality change?

It's difficult to go into details, but lets say I became less focused and driven in both work and personal life, but also an easier person to work with. The kids perceived this evolution as very positive. I'm on different medication now, but some effects appear to be irreversible.

I'm reading your combined posts as you having had mild anxiety that you weren't consciously aware of (aka high strung), and that the medication (partially?) addressed this without your realizing it.

That the effects were lasting (ie continued after you stopped taking the medication) just means the underlying causes were likely mental (ie conditioned or learned) as opposed to an inherent physical condition.

Good news! If you want it back just take stimulants - anxiety is one of the most prominent negative side effects of caffeine. (I'm only half joking here - most people will be familiar with the over-caffeinated and highly productive but difficult to work with coworker.)

Re: Medications that change who we are

#158
post #81

>"It turns out many ordinary medications don’t just affect our bodies – they affect our brains." I feel like perpetuating this mindset is the ultimate sin of modern psychiatry and the entire industry of psychiatric pharmaceuticals - your brain is your body. It's not some special thing that sits apart from it. It is an integral part of the whole, no different than your kidneys or liver. People think they can take an a…

> It's not some special thing that sits apart from it. It is an integral part of the whole, no different than your kidneys or liver. Except it is. The brain is a part of your body and the two are tightly integrated. Yet the brain is also not simply another organ. If you lose half of your liver, your personality might change due to the trauma, but you will still be you. If you lose a kidney, you’ll live on as if littl…

As an aside there is also the testis-blood-barrier, although this is not quite as tight as the blood brain barrier.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#159
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not some special thing that sits apart from it. It is an integral part of the whole, no different than your kidneys or liver. Except it is. The brain is a part of your body and the two are tightly integrated. Yet the brain is also not simply another organ. If you lose half of your liver, your personality might change due to the trauma, but you will still be you. If you lose a kidney, you’ll live on as if littl…

> If you lose half your brain, you’re probably dead, and if not, you’ll be drastically impaired the rest of your life. You’ll also likely experience drastic personality changes. That's...not at all what the actual results of a hemispherectomy, in which you literally lose half of your brain, show.

And yet an unlucky blow to the head can alter you forever. It’s not black and white.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#160
post #155
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Citation required https://youtu.be/twhvtzd6gXA >"Depression may be related to an imbalance of natural chemicals between nerve cells in the brain. Prescription Zoloft works to correct this imbalance."

So, sharks selling surboards. Not exactly PubMed though, is it?

At least 70% of the DSM-5 Task Force had financial ties to those sharks selling surf boards

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-5#Criticism

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