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Majority of Americans favor wealth tax on very rich: poll

reuters.com

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Re: Majority of Americans favor wealth tax on very rich: poll

#151
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Many people rent, and have never seen a property tax bill, despite paying it indirectly via their landlord. 2. It's not the same thing. You can choose how extravagant a house to live in relative to your total wealth and your income to make sure that you can cover the property tax bill while still meeting your saving goals. An "everything else" wealth tax, (by definition) doesn't allow you to do that. Your control…

> 2. It's not the same thing. You can choose how extravagant a house to live in relative to your total wealth and your income to make sure that you can cover the property tax bill while still meeting your saving goals. This isn't really true. Yes, I can control the value of my home at a single point in time but if my neighborhood gentrifies, even if I make no improvements to my home, my taxes will go up. You can tech…

You can move when it gets too unbearable. You wouldn't be able to do the same with your savings.

Re: Majority of Americans favor wealth tax on very rich: poll

#152
So much of what needs to be said on this subject has already been said, and said long ago. I'll just leave this here:

What is law? What ought it to be? What is its domain? What are its limits? Where, in fact, does the prerogative of the legislator stop? I have no hesitation in answering, Law is common force organized to prevent injustice;—in short, Law is Justice. It is not true that the legislator has absolute power over our persons and property, since they pre-exist, and his work is only to secure them from injury. It is not true that the mission of the law is to regulate our consciences, our ideas, our will, our education, our sentiments, our works, our exchanges, our gifts, our enjoyments. Its mission is to prevent the rights of one from interfering with those of another, in any one of these things.

Law, because it has force for its necessary sanction, can only have the domain of force, which is justice. And as every individual has a right to have recourse to force only in cases of lawful defense, so collective force, so which is only the union of individual forces, cannot be rationally used for any other end. The law, then, is solely the organization of individual rights that existed before law.

###

Legal plunder has two roots: one of them, as we have already seen, is in human greed; the other is in misconceived philanthropy. Before I proceed, I think I ought to explain myself upon the word plunder. I do not take it, as it often is taken, in a vague, undefined, relative, or metaphorical sense. I use it in its scientific acceptation, and as expressing the opposite idea to property. When a portion of wealth passes out of the hands of him who has acquired it, without his consent, and without compensation, to him who has not created it, whether by force or by artifice, I say that property is violated, that plunder is perpetrated. I say that this is exactly what the law ought to repress always and everywhere. If the law itself performs the action it ought to repress, I say that plunder is still perpetrated, and even, in a social point of view, under aggravated circumstances. In this case, however, he who profits from the plunder is not responsible for it; it is the law, the lawgiver, society itself, and this is where the political danger lies.

It is to be regretted that there is something offensive in the word. I have sought in vain for another, for I would not wish at any time, and especially just now, to add an irritating word to our disagreements; therefore, whether I am believed or not, I declare that I do not mean to impugn the intentions nor the morality of anybody. I am attacking an idea that I believe to be false—a system that appears to me to be unjust; and this is so independent of intentions, that each of us profits by it without wishing it, and suffers from it without being aware of the cause.

Any person must write under the influence of party spirit or of fear, who would call into question the sincerity of protectionism, of socialism, and even of communism, which are one and the same plant, in three different periods of its growth. All that can be said is, that plunder is more visible by its partiality in protectionism, 3 and by its universality in communism; whence it follows that, of the three systems, socialism is still the most vague, the most undefined, and consequently the most sincere. Be that as it may, to conclude that legal plunder has one of its roots in misconceived philanthropy, is evidently to put intentions out of the question.

With this understanding, let us examine the value, the origin, and the tendency of this popular aspiration, which pretends to realize the general good by general plunder. The Socialists say, since the law organizes justice, why should it not organize labor, instruction, and religion? Why? Because it could not organize labor, instruction, and religion, without disorganizing justice. For remember, that law is force, and that consequently the domain of the law cannot properly extend beyond the domain of force.

Bastiat - The Law

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/44800/44800-h/44800-h.htm

Re: Majority of Americans favor wealth tax on very rich: poll

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A wealth tax, where a fraction of your bank balance is removed every month, is a totally alien concept to most people. If you haven't thought about it before, it can take a minute or two to wrap your head around what it would actually mean. Many Americans already experience a form of wealth tax: property tax. You are taxed a percentage of the value of your property, something not terribly liquid. Incidentally, a ha…

Car tax and land tax are two very common existing wealth taxes. I wonder why they are rarely described as a wealth tax.

I think it's because they people you normally think of as "wealthy" don't have most of their property in the form of house or car - only the poor or the shrinking middle class that's the case.

Re: Majority of Americans favor wealth tax on very rich: poll

#154
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Many people rent, and have never seen a property tax bill, despite paying it indirectly via their landlord. 2. It's not the same thing. You can choose how extravagant a house to live in relative to your total wealth and your income to make sure that you can cover the property tax bill while still meeting your saving goals. An "everything else" wealth tax, (by definition) doesn't allow you to do that. Your control…

> 2. It's not the same thing. You can choose how extravagant a house to live in relative to your total wealth and your income to make sure that you can cover the property tax bill while still meeting your saving goals. This isn't really true. Yes, I can control the value of my home at a single point in time but if my neighborhood gentrifies, even if I make no improvements to my home, my taxes will go up. You can tech…

Florida (counties?) also caps that rate of yearly increase on property taxes, especially for homesteads.

Re: Majority of Americans favor wealth tax on very rich: poll

#155
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

giving more money to the wealthy, which is the normal way that the world works

Giving money to the government is the same thing as giving it to the wealthy. Example: trillions of dollars in student loans have been captured by private education.

The depends - in some cases, there are very entrenched rents that mean money that should go to the people actually go to the wealthy. Like US healthcare, or US education or actual rents. And of course, some times the money goes to the wealthy immediately - like when it's spent on missiles that murder people on other continents.

But some parts of the world can somehow make things like healthcare and education rent-free - spent money actually help people and not just add to endless dragon hoards. It's a long uphill battle of course, but it's possible.

EDIT: this is why I think UBI is unfeasible without bigger societal changes - it would end up just subsidising the landlords.

Re: Majority of Americans favor wealth tax on very rich: poll

#156
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A wealth tax, where a fraction of your bank balance is removed every month, is a totally alien concept to most people. If you haven't thought about it before, it can take a minute or two to wrap your head around what it would actually mean. Many Americans already experience a form of wealth tax: property tax. You are taxed a percentage of the value of your property, something not terribly liquid. Incidentally, a ha…

1. Many people rent, and have never seen a property tax bill, despite paying it indirectly via their landlord. 2. It's not the same thing. You can choose how extravagant a house to live in relative to your total wealth and your income to make sure that you can cover the property tax bill while still meeting your saving goals. An "everything else" wealth tax, (by definition) doesn't allow you to do that. Your control…

Every thing of wealth requires protection. Lack of an army and government to protect your wealth and it will be plundered by the masses. With Citizens United I have no problem letting every dollar now be taxed the same as a person. Have two taxes, one applied equally for every individual and one applied evenly to every dollar of wealth. Wouldn't that be representation with taxation? It'd be like the Senate (every state gets the same equal representation) and the House (states with more people pay more taxes)...

Re: Majority of Americans favor wealth tax on very rich: poll

#157
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument for a higher tax on income above a certain level is that it helps prevent tyranny. In the US, anyway, wealth equals power. Great wealth accumulated in few hands shifts a great deal of power over the nation from the populace to those hands. Without some constraint, this poses a real threat to overall freedom and liberty.

You say that wealth accumulation poses a (vague, potential, in the future) threat to overall freedom and liberty... but arbitrary wealth redistribution poses an immediate, obvious threat to overall freedom and liberty _right now_.

The threat is not vague, potential, or in the future. It has happened in the past (which is why the tax code addressed it), and it is happening again.

Re: Majority of Americans favor wealth tax on very rich: poll

#159

I don't really care about wealth inequality, but from a revenue perspective a wealth tax seems fantastic _if_ can be enacted and enforced. Bill Gates came out in favor of a limited wealth tax as well - I think a mild cost to citizenship for the uber-wealthy is a great idea. Feels like political malpractice to not attempt it. Sidebar: > Kathy Herron, 56, a Republican who lives in Santa Rosa, California, said her suppo…

> from a revenue perspective a wealth tax seems fantastic

Amusingly, the current manifesto re wealth inequality, Capital in the Twenty-First Century, pointed out that confiscatory taxes on the rich would be pointless re a revenue perspective. It turns out there are so few rich (e.g. the 1%) that even if you take all their money, it doesn't really dent our large government expenditures spent on the majority.

E.g. if the top tax rate went up to 70%, that would only be an extra 320 billion, which is only half medicare.

Re: Majority of Americans favor wealth tax on very rich: poll

#160

this is a classic case of tyranny of the majority. Majority of Americans favor stealing wealth from others.

The average worker is 5x more productive than they were 30 years ago, but wages have been basically flat.

In the last 10 years, the federal minimum wage has not risen, effectively reducing the minimum wage by about $1 due to inflation.

The richest 500 people in the world grew their wealth by $1.2 trillion in 2019, a 25% increase over a period of one year.

The minority build their wealth on the labor and taxes of the majority, but sure, adjusting the tax code is "stealing".

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