How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#151

Post by JoBrad » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

Youden wrote: post #145

JoBrad wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not exactly a fair comparison, since Russia hasn't had the funding to make any large-scale invasions since then. However they were more than happy to cut off oil to Europe just a few years ago, invade Ukraine, and generally act in a belligerent way toward several different countries in an effort to destabilize their neighbors.

> That's not exactly a fair comparison, since Russia hasn't had the funding to make any large-scale invasions since then I don't understand how this makes the comparison unfair. Whatever the reason (e.g. lack of funding), Russia can't have quite the same impact in conventional warfare as the US. > However they were more than happy to cut off oil to Europe just a few years ago, invade Ukraine, and generally act in a b…

The portion of your comment I disagreed with was here:

> I'm not aware of Russia doing anything remotely similar since its birth (where "birth" refers to the collapse of the USSR).

While I agree that Russia _cannot_ have the same impact, it’s not for lack of trying. The “unfair” part was comparing 243 years of history with 28. However even within the past few decades you seem to be ignorant of or ignore Russia’s actions in Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, and Syria; the violence Putin used to gain and hold power; killing Russian citizens who are political adversaries; and the active belligerence and aggression that Russian Intelligence has shown toward other countries, especially in the last few years.

None of this excuses aggressive behavior by any other country, but to say that Russia has been exemplary or that they’ve not engaged in horrific behavior as well is simply untrue.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#152

Post by leereeves » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

emilsedgh wrote: post #149

leereeves wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Iranian living in the US, what's your perspective on the recent claims by US officials: things like Iran attacking civilians in Saudi Arabia and US forces in SA and Iraq, seizing tankers, and supporting militias who were attempting to take over Iraq and killing protestors there? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-says-iran-may-have-ki... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/u-s-officials-iran-off... https:…

They didn't happen in a vacuum. The U.S. is suffocating Iran. The sanctions doesn't allow anybody in the world to have any commerce with Iran. I was fully onboard with Obama's sanctions. They had a clear ask: Stop the nuclear development. Everybody understood it and is was clear. Iran agreed to JCPOA and stopped any nuclear development. Why is Iran under sanctions now? They have given a list of demands and it's basic…

If could understand if Iraq struck back at the US. But kicking back at the US by seizing a British oil tanker or attacking Saudi civilians and Iraqi protestors?

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#153

Post by jessaustin » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

Niten wrote: post #128

jessaustin wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people of Bolivia have recently learned this to their great misfortune. The USA government hasn't even been shy about its support for that coup against a democratically elected leader who lifted so many out of poverty. The regime who took over celebrated the fact that they are white Christians and not brown natives.

"Democratically elected" is a really odd way to say "defied a referendum on term limits and rigged an election".

Even if that were true (it's not!), the coup plotters evicted him by threatening his sister's life, before his new term started.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#154

Post by yyyk » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

emilsedgh wrote: post #73

nexuist wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that regard, the current offensive action may as well be viewed as a breath of fresh air. If blood must be shed to end tyranny, perhaps it is a worthwhile gamble. The Iranian people gain nothing from allowing the current regime to grow. A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran, with a connected and educated populace capable of maintaining it. I think one of the main flaws in Iraq and Afghan…

You think waging war is the way to bring democracy to Iran? Iran is a country next to Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq. It's an enemy to _both_ Saudi Arabia and Israel. And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever? Iran is made of dozens of different ethnicities. What if it became a Libyia and different regions started a civil war? This is sickeni…

"And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever?"

ISIS is Sunni, while nearly all Iranian citizens are Shia. Taliban is a Pakistani proxy organization which also hates Shia. They have zero chance of succeeding in Iran under any and all circumstances. It's funny that you criticize the OP for ignorance, while making at least as ignorant arguments.

Anyway, both of you are coming in with a mistaken assumption: That the US actually wants to take down the Mullah's regime. That was never the case - all US administrations since 1980 have always tried to change the regime's behaviour and not to overthrow it. There never was even a plan to overthrow the regime.

The US has tried both containment and negotiations to change the mullah's behaviour. What we found out after JCPOA was that there was no meaningful difference between 'hardliners' and 'reformists'.

Both support the theocracy and oppose democracy. Both support executing people for overstepping religious laws - or merely for not being 'straight'. Both are perfectly fine with expanding this system outward, and sending out troops and terrorists outside Iran's borders. Both support killing protesters to maintain their rule, and both support killing hundreds of thousands of Syrians to maintain their influence.

So if the not-really-'reformist' political future is shot, there's no reason to care. If negotiations and JCPOA brings nothing (its nuclear provisions were laughable, and everything else Iran did was allowed), then it will be containment all the way.

Trump has just shown he's willing to out-escalate the regime in response to any provocation, and there's no economic way out for them.

Even if (hopefully) Trump is not reelected, he's shown that the regime is much weaker than it appears to be. The only way out for the regime is to make concessions, like stopping attacks on other countries, agreeing to inspections unlimited by time and so on.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#155

Post by frequentnapper » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #150

mrep wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way do you consider the gulf war a failure?

Can I assume you're talking about the first one, stumbled into by Bush the Elder? Did we win that? When did we win it? Why didn't the troops come home then? USA troops stationed in Arabia, as they have been since the beginning of that war, was the reason that ObL did the 9/11 attacks. Those attacks were good for lots of armaments manufacturers, but the were not in the American national interest.

Not true. 9/11 was the direct result of us interfering in Indonesia east Timor conflict 15 years earlier by stopping jihadis from wiping out christians.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#156

Post by emilsedgh » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

yyyk wrote: post #154

emilsedgh wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think waging war is the way to bring democracy to Iran? Iran is a country next to Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq. It's an enemy to _both_ Saudi Arabia and Israel. And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever? Iran is made of dozens of different ethnicities. What if it became a Libyia and different regions started a civil war? This is sickeni…

"And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever?" ISIS is Sunni, while nearly all Iranian citizens are Shia. Taliban is a Pakistani proxy organization which also hates Shia. They have zero chance of succeeding in Iran under any and all circumstances. It's funny that you criticize the OP for ignorance, while making at least as ignorant arguments. A…

Since I ignored the Shia/Sunni situation, you assumed that was due to my ignorance.

I'm an Iranian (Actually a Jewish Iranian, hence, much more information about religion dynamics in Iran).

I agree that Shia/Sunni dynamic is unlikely to cause instability in Iran, there are many more dynamics that can be exploited:

1. Iran is very diverse regarding ethnicity. A dozen different ethnicities live in Iran which makes a Libya situation possible (Although unlikely)

2. A civil war, where government fight armed people, like Syria. I'm pretty much sure many countries would love to do what they did to Syria by arming worst possible forces.

> Even if (hopefully) Trump is not reelected, he's shown that the regime is much weaker than it appears to be.

Iran is under heaviest of sanctions. Economy is crushed. Yet, they control Iraq, they destroyed a U.S. drone, seized a British tanker, attacked Saudi oil causing major damage to Aramco's IPO (Biggest in history) and caused the bigger disruption in flow of Oil in the past decades and they got almost 0 reactions back and you are saying me they are considered weaker because a general was killed?

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#157

Post by emilsedgh » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #152

emilsedgh wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't happen in a vacuum. The U.S. is suffocating Iran. The sanctions doesn't allow anybody in the world to have any commerce with Iran. I was fully onboard with Obama's sanctions. They had a clear ask: Stop the nuclear development. Everybody understood it and is was clear. Iran agreed to JCPOA and stopped any nuclear development. Why is Iran under sanctions now? They have given a list of demands and it's basic…

If could understand if Iraq struck back at the US. But kicking back at the US by seizing a British oil tanker or attacking Saudi civilians and Iraqi protestors?

1. I'm not saying they are good or rational people.

2. This is the only leverage they have. Do you want them to do drone strikes on the U.S. soil?

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#158

Post by jessaustin » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

perennate wrote: post #130

jessaustin wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people of Bolivia have recently learned this to their great misfortune. The USA government hasn't even been shy about its support for that coup against a democratically elected leader who lifted so many out of poverty. The regime who took over celebrated the fact that they are white Christians and not brown natives.

The USA issued statements supporting the ousting of Morales. That was the extent of USA's involvement. That does not really make it a "USA backed coup". Unless you believe it just because that's what Morales claimed.

We might strongly suspect it, based only on the fact that CIA has done this in dozens of nations since the episode described in TFA. Or, you know, we could just pay any attention at all to actual journalism [0].

[0] https://thegrayzone.com/2019/11/13/bolivian-coup-plotters-sc...

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#159

Post by jessaustin » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 10:39 PM UTC

frequentnapper wrote: post #155

jessaustin wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I assume you're talking about the first one, stumbled into by Bush the Elder? Did we win that? When did we win it? Why didn't the troops come home then? USA troops stationed in Arabia, as they have been since the beginning of that war, was the reason that ObL did the 9/11 attacks. Those attacks were good for lots of armaments manufacturers, but the were not in the American national interest.

Not true. 9/11 was the direct result of us interfering in Indonesia east Timor conflict 15 years earlier by stopping jihadis from wiping out christians.

OK, sure, ObL cared more about some island he'd never visited than about his home nation. Pull the other one, conspiracy theorist.

http://www.actmemphis.org/usama-bin-laden-1996-declaration-o...

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#160

Post by leereeves » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 10:42 PM UTC

emilsedgh wrote: post #157

leereeves wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If could understand if Iraq struck back at the US. But kicking back at the US by seizing a British oil tanker or attacking Saudi civilians and Iraqi protestors?

1. I'm not saying they are good or rational people. 2. This is the only leverage they have. Do you want them to do drone strikes on the U.S. soil?

I just think there's more going on than merely kicking back at the US. They're even cracking down on protestors inside Iran.