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Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#151

Post by nec4b »

jacquesm wrote: post #138
rayiner wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re drawing a false equivalence both between the people detained and the condition of their detention. > Any modern society should be able to say that concentration camps are bad, or that rounding up or punishing children, families people in the basis of race, familial connections, etc is an affront to human dignity that should be condemned. Of course. And modern nations should condemn China on that basis. But wha…

> But what does that have to do with detaining people apprehended while illegally crossing a sovereign nation’s border? That this needs spelling out is pretty sad: that separating infants from their parents and sticking them in what to my eyes looks suspiciously like a concentration camp (a thing a Jewish observer btw agreed with) is the rough equivalent of what China is accused of here. And that's besides losing tra…

>Are we even on the same planet here?

I don't know which planet do you come from, but on the one I live on, there is pretty big distinction between illegal border crossing vs reeducation camps based on your ethnicity.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#152

Post by nec4b »

jacquesm wrote: post #123
_Microft wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The core problem is that this rhetorical device precludes discussion of issues (ex: civil rights) by one country (ex: the United States) if that state lacks a perfect record." as a journalist wrote when Trump weaseled out of a discussion in a different context.

No, it hasn't got anything to do with that. It is simply that complaining about the same thing that another country does while your own country does it too is hypocritical. You don't need to have a perfect record on everything else, but on that particular thing your statements are moot because your opponent (in this case China) will be able to simply ignore you because you do it yourself too . It would be about as ef…

America is rounding up kids and putting them in reeducation concentration camps based on which apps they have installed on their phones or for any other arbitrary reason for that matter? Do you really believe that?

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#153

Post by jacquesm »

nec4b wrote: post #151
jacquesm wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But what does that have to do with detaining people apprehended while illegally crossing a sovereign nation’s border? That this needs spelling out is pretty sad: that separating infants from their parents and sticking them in what to my eyes looks suspiciously like a concentration camp (a thing a Jewish observer btw agreed with) is the rough equivalent of what China is accused of here. And that's besides losing tra…

>Are we even on the same planet here? I don't know which planet do you come from, but on the one I live on, there is pretty big distinction between illegal border crossing vs reeducation camps based on your ethnicity.

In both cases parents were separated from their sometimes very young children. So yes, indeed, there should have been a distinction, given that the one is happening in a country that recurrently describes itself as 'the good guys' and the other one happens in a murderous dictatorship masquerading as a free country. I'll leave it up to you to sort out which is which.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#154

Post by jacquesm »

nec4b wrote: post #152
jacquesm wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it hasn't got anything to do with that. It is simply that complaining about the same thing that another country does while your own country does it too is hypocritical. You don't need to have a perfect record on everything else, but on that particular thing your statements are moot because your opponent (in this case China) will be able to simply ignore you because you do it yourself too . It would be about as ef…

America is rounding up kids and putting them in reeducation concentration camps based on which apps they have installed on their phones or for any other arbitrary reason for that matter? Do you really believe that?

No, it takes toddlers and other infants away from their parents causing huge trauma for the reason of wanting a better life. And yes, I really believe that. Don't put words in my mouth.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#155

Post by nec4b »

jacquesm wrote: post #154
nec4b wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is rounding up kids and putting them in reeducation concentration camps based on which apps they have installed on their phones or for any other arbitrary reason for that matter? Do you really believe that?

No, it takes toddlers and other infants away from their parents causing huge trauma for the reason of wanting a better life. And yes, I really believe that. Don't put words in my mouth.

> No, it takes toddlers and other infants away from their parents causing huge trauma for the reason of wanting a better life.

You know that they do not separate them for wanting a better life. They separate them because their parents broke the law and are being processed. The same way child services take away children from parents when they go to prison. It's due process and not because you have the wrong skin color or set of beliefs. Americans are having a discussion about if separating children from parents is necessary and what to do about it, the Chinese are not. And if you really believed what you wrote, you'd be protesting in front of your city's childhood protection services headquarters and you're not.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#156

Post by nec4b »

jacquesm wrote: post #153
nec4b wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are we even on the same planet here? I don't know which planet do you come from, but on the one I live on, there is pretty big distinction between illegal border crossing vs reeducation camps based on your ethnicity.

In both cases parents were separated from their sometimes very young children. So yes, indeed, there should have been a distinction, given that the one is happening in a country that recurrently describes itself as 'the good guys' and the other one happens in a murderous dictatorship masquerading as a free country. I'll leave it up to you to sort out which is which.

A doctor can kill a person by an honest mistake or by using a person as lab mouse in a concentration camp. The person dies either way. My morality sensor says that these two deaths are not equal even though they are both dead.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#157

Post by pferde »

acdha wrote: post #108
pferde wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were rumours of the atrocities, but probably the first public testimonies were the Auschwitz Protocols, based on first-hand experiences of a few concentration camp escapees. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_Protocols )

Read the document which was the subject of my first link and ask whether rumor was an appropriate word to describe an official report to the UN with eyewitness accounts: https://archive.org/details/TheMassExterminationOfJewsInGerm...

Thanks, I was not aware of this document. However, its wikipedia page mentions that it was not widely believed at the time. Heck, even Auschwitz Protocols after it did not seem to have much success in reaching the audience (western world) for quite a while.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#158

Post by jacquesm »

nec4b wrote: post #156
jacquesm wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both cases parents were separated from their sometimes very young children. So yes, indeed, there should have been a distinction, given that the one is happening in a country that recurrently describes itself as 'the good guys' and the other one happens in a murderous dictatorship masquerading as a free country. I'll leave it up to you to sort out which is which.

A doctor can kill a person by an honest mistake or by using a person as lab mouse in a concentration camp. The person dies either way. My morality sensor says that these two deaths are not equal even though they are both dead.

You're on to something there.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#159

Post by jacquesm »

nec4b wrote: post #155
jacquesm wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it takes toddlers and other infants away from their parents causing huge trauma for the reason of wanting a better life. And yes, I really believe that. Don't put words in my mouth.

> No, it takes toddlers and other infants away from their parents causing huge trauma for the reason of wanting a better life. You know that they do not separate them for wanting a better life. They separate them because their parents broke the law and are being processed. The same way child services take away children from parents when they go to prison. It's due process and not because you have the wrong skin color…

> They separate them because their parents broke the law and are being processed.

Funny how no other country seems to have this policy. Mostly because it is inhuman. It's not 'due process' when your head of state and his fascist minion has said it is to discourage people from attempting to flee. Whether or not they are illegal is immaterial (plenty of them are not).

If anybody is wondering about how a wealthy and otherwise orderly society can slide into fascism: this is it. To deny other people their humanity is a very important first step.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#160

Post by nec4b »

jacquesm wrote: post #159
nec4b wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, it takes toddlers and other infants away from their parents causing huge trauma for the reason of wanting a better life. You know that they do not separate them for wanting a better life. They separate them because their parents broke the law and are being processed. The same way child services take away children from parents when they go to prison. It's due process and not because you have the wrong skin color…

> They separate them because their parents broke the law and are being processed. Funny how no other country seems to have this policy. Mostly because it is inhuman . It's not 'due process' when your head of state and his fascist minion has said it is to discourage people from attempting to flee. Whether or not they are illegal is immaterial (plenty of them are not). If anybody is wondering about how a wealthy and ot…

People have been denied humanity ever since throughout history. A doubt you know much about fascism otherwise you wouldn't be throwing it around so easily. For example were the ottomans fascist when they stole children away from parents in conquered lands, incorporated them in their army and then used them to plunder that same lands again? You have a very binary world view if you believe things are only absolutely good or absolutely bad.
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