Dear Stack Exchange, Inc. • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#151

Post by zwetan » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 5:04 AM UTC

hisnameismanuel wrote: post #44

parsimo2010 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not aware of the drama, then it really isn't meant for you. The following threads have some background (and dang has linked a few more threads leading up to these): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21175225 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21176712 The tl;dr (but still pretty long) is that Stack Overflow instituted a new Code of Conduct that required the use of a person's [preferred] pronouns. This…

I understand your intention is positive, and I enjoyed the nuance of your post. As a member of the 'entire LGBTQ+ community', we're not monolithic, or even close to it. SO is the first mainstream website (at least in the circles I run in) that has even attempted this kind of thing. I'm willing to cut them a little slack as they navigate a topic which has been incredibly fraught.

but if you "cut them a little slack" then there is only overflow left

that's why it explodes

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#152

Post by dclusin » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 5:06 AM UTC

schappim wrote: post #68

thanatropism wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Keeping your identity small” has certainly gone out of fashion.

PG Essay: http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html

This essay would be harshly criticized if it was written today. It still might be someday.

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#153

Post by Pfhreak » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 5:07 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #78

Pfhreak wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pronouns affect most people. Most people use them. If you are talking about trans people, it's estimated to be about 1-3% of people. That's roughly one in thirty to one in a hundred people. That puts it at about the roughly same numbers as the number of redheads. It's uncommon, sure, but it's not totally minuscule. Trans folks are also one of the most likely (if not the most likely) minorities to suffer physical viol…

> All they are asking for is the same basic level of respect and politeness that anyone else gets. Well no, that is the entire reason the situation isn't an open-and-shut-nothing-to-see-here non-controversy. The other 97-99% of people go through life without ever particularly asserting that a specific personal pronoun needs to be used for them. They'll get antsy if someone is trying to insult them, but it looks a lot…

> That 99-97% of people don't really control their public identity; have you ever seen someone trying to shake a nickname they don't particularly like?

Yes? "Hey, I don't really like being called that." "Oh shit, sorry, didn't know."

> That 99-97% of people don't really control their public identity

What? Sure they do. They were clothing that puts them in a particular group. (Or do you feel you'd have a hard time identifying punks or businessmen?) Or they'll wear religious symbols. Or speak with an accent. Or carry a firearm. Or any number of other external identity markers beyond gender.

> It is complicated and context specific

It really, really isn't. If you are unsure, ask someone their pronouns. If you make a mistake, quickly apologize and move on. Literally end of story.

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#154

Post by lawfulcactus » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 5:08 AM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #95

ALittleLight wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why people would volunteer to do work for a for profit entity. Especially one that will, apparently, fire you on a whim.

You work as an unpaid content author for ycombinator.

The ratio of value (or entertainment) provided to oneself versus value provided to another entity clearly differs significantly between a user of a site and an (unpaid) moderator of it.

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#155

Post by patmcc » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 5:09 AM UTC

ShamelessC wrote: post #97

ALittleLight wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like there was a disagreement regarding the use of gender pronouns that resulted in 73 moderators getting "fired" or leaving. The author of that summary mentioned one thing I found especially egregious, which is a policy that stated avoiding using pronouns was out of alignment. If I understand correctly, when she asked how they would know if she was avoiding pronouns or just naturally not writing them, she was…

Is the implication that the LGBTQ+ community found it _more_ offensive to use e.g. "they" than "he" or "she"? I'm so confused. Wouldn't "they" (the gender neutral version) be _more_ inclusive? Is there some other alternative that's even better that I haven't considered? I hope I'm not offending anyone by asking this. Just trying to make sure I understand.

Yes, people will often find it offensive if you use "they" after asked to use "he" or "she".

If someone says "I am a man, please use he/him for my pronouns" and you use 'they' - that would generally be considered at least odd, if not inappropriate.

I don't think that means it's inappropriate to use "they" as the default if no other information exists though.

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#156

Post by Pfhreak » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 5:14 AM UTC

khazhou wrote: post #87

Pfhreak wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pronouns affect most people. Most people use them. If you are talking about trans people, it's estimated to be about 1-3% of people. That's roughly one in thirty to one in a hundred people. That puts it at about the roughly same numbers as the number of redheads. It's uncommon, sure, but it's not totally minuscule. Trans folks are also one of the most likely (if not the most likely) minorities to suffer physical viol…

1-3% does not pass the sniff test. Way too high. A quick search gives the number 0.6% according to a 2016 study.

That number is likely under-reported, and there has been a significant rise in the number of people who feel comfortable identifying in the past few years. A study performed in 2017 found that 2.7% (of roughly 80,000 surveyed) identified as trans or gender non-conforming: https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/14...

I've seen the numbers that range from ~1% (or a little under) to as much as 3%, like the study above.

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#157

Post by dwaltrip » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 5:14 AM UTC

odkamkfn wrote: post #145

dwaltrip wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reads as a blasé swipe at LGBTQ+ attempts to achieve equal rights, societal acceptance, and common decency from others. I'm guessing that's not what you intended? Disclaimer: I don't have a strong opinion about the specifics of the stackexchange case. Without knowing all of the details, it seems the actions and new policy was a bit extreme and will do more harm than good.

Really? You got all that from "Keeping your identity small has certainly gone out of fashion"? How? This is a serious question, I absolutely have no idea how you're getting from point A to B here.

The comment I replied to was responding to a comment that said:

> It's incredible that pronouns can bring down an entire community.

This is obviously talking about the pronouns that transgender folks identify as. Where is the disconnect?

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#158

Post by dwaltrip » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 5:14 AM UTC

sooheon wrote: post #146

dwaltrip wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reads as a blasé swipe at LGBTQ+ attempts to achieve equal rights, societal acceptance, and common decency from others. I'm guessing that's not what you intended? Disclaimer: I don't have a strong opinion about the specifics of the stackexchange case. Without knowing all of the details, it seems the actions and new policy was a bit extreme and will do more harm than good.

PG has an essay with that title: http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html#f2n

I know. I don't think it fits well here.

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#159

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 5:15 AM UTC

ShamelessC wrote: post #97

ALittleLight wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like there was a disagreement regarding the use of gender pronouns that resulted in 73 moderators getting "fired" or leaving. The author of that summary mentioned one thing I found especially egregious, which is a policy that stated avoiding using pronouns was out of alignment. If I understand correctly, when she asked how they would know if she was avoiding pronouns or just naturally not writing them, she was…

Is the implication that the LGBTQ+ community found it _more_ offensive to use e.g. "they" than "he" or "she"? I'm so confused. Wouldn't "they" (the gender neutral version) be _more_ inclusive? Is there some other alternative that's even better that I haven't considered? I hope I'm not offending anyone by asking this. Just trying to make sure I understand.

[deleted]

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#160

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 5:15 AM UTC

odkamkfn wrote: post #145

dwaltrip wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reads as a blasé swipe at LGBTQ+ attempts to achieve equal rights, societal acceptance, and common decency from others. I'm guessing that's not what you intended? Disclaimer: I don't have a strong opinion about the specifics of the stackexchange case. Without knowing all of the details, it seems the actions and new policy was a bit extreme and will do more harm than good.

Really? You got all that from "Keeping your identity small has certainly gone out of fashion"? How? This is a serious question, I absolutely have no idea how you're getting from point A to B here.

[deleted]