French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games • Hacker News Board

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#151

Post by gamblor956 » Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

jeroenhd wrote: post #131

_edo wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Funny how you can make the same comment about physical goods. No, you can't. That's why this is such a complicated issue. The inherent value in a physical good is consumed with use. If somebody buys a couch and takes it home it becomes a used couch. Used couches are not great substitutes for new couches; they devalue with time and use and you eventually have to pay somebody just to take it off your hands. Its value…

The inherent value for a digital food also decreases over time. Top of the line graphics from ten years ago look bad in comparison to today. Story driven games get their stories spoilt over time, especially the popular ones. Compatibility with controllers and other such devices depend wildly on backwards compatibility (for example, the xbox one controller had loads of compatibility issues with games that only accepte…

You're still not getting it.

It's irrelevant that graphics from 10 years ago aren't as good as they are today because that only matters for games where cutting-edge graphics are part of the selling point of the game (i.e., AAA games). There are plenty of games that don't try for cutting edge graphics and so look the same today as they did when first released, like Cave Story, Celeste, Fez, Braid, etc.

The point the parent was making is that a copy of a game is inherently the exact same as any other copy of the game, which is not the case with physical goods. A physical good, however lightly used, still has some wear and tear when resold, so it is not the same as a new good.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#152

Post by purple_ducks » Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 5:52 PM UTC

oliwarner wrote: post #149

jboydyhacker wrote: post #87

Surprised to see so much sentiment against this ruling. Digital software sale and distribution is just supposed to make software management easier and faster. A license is the same regardless of wether it's physical or digital. Why shouldn't this apply to resale of said merchandise? I rarely say this- but the French really make a ton of sense here.

It absolutely makes sense. All content licenses should be resaleable. But this will have serious ramifications for how we "buy" content. If you can buy a game, play it for 100h and them hand it off to somebody else who can do exactly the same, with the publisher/developer/store are getting nothing from those transactions, they are quickly going to find another business model. There is no degeneration like there is wi…

Seems like a great time to separate the billing of license to play from value added things like data storage & bandwidth.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#153

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 5:53 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #132

_edo wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Funny how you can make the same comment about physical goods. No, you can't. That's why this is such a complicated issue. The inherent value in a physical good is consumed with use. If somebody buys a couch and takes it home it becomes a used couch. Used couches are not great substitutes for new couches; they devalue with time and use and you eventually have to pay somebody just to take it off your hands. Its value…

For the case of physical media that contains digital data (like a game on a DVD or music on a CD) this is a distinction without a difference. Should I not be allowed to resell my CDs if they are in pristine condition? I think the argument being made here is: bad for companies -> companies are less incentivized to make products -> bad for consumers of those products, therefore anything bad for companies is bad for use…

[deleted]

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#154

Post by cannonedhamster » Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

hoffs wrote: post #66

orra wrote: post #44

Sensible but not surprising decision. The right to resell software was made incredibly clear in the CJEU case Oracle v UsedSoft . In fact, how did Steam manage for so long to ignore the pivotal case law?

Steam? How about pretty much every digital storefront? You can't sell prime movies, you can't sell iTunes music and so on. All of these store fronts should ideally allow people to resell all digital content they purchased.

Prime movies is all you can watch rental service. Buying movies from Amazon digital is buying a perpetual license. The distinction is in selling access versus selling goods.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#155

Post by cannonedhamster » Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 5:57 PM UTC

statusquoantefa wrote: post #90

bluecalm wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should? The whole idea of copyright is that only the author (or otherwise copyright holder) can profit from making copies. Just because you purchased a copy yourself shouldn't automatically result in a right to making another copy for someone else as long as you promise not to use yours.

I know, people here are demanding that after you fill up at an all you can eat buffet, you should be allowed to sell your seat to somebody else.

No they are saying that if you buy a meal, you should be able to package it up and sell it to someone else, which you can do. If I go buy a hamburger, I can walk right out onto the street and if someone else offers me money for it I can sell it. What I can't sell is access, which is what a buffet is, you're not paying for the individual item you're paying for access to the buffet.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#156

Post by bluecalm » Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 6:01 PM UTC

statusquoantefa wrote: post #90

bluecalm wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should? The whole idea of copyright is that only the author (or otherwise copyright holder) can profit from making copies. Just because you purchased a copy yourself shouldn't automatically result in a right to making another copy for someone else as long as you promise not to use yours.

I know, people here are demanding that after you fill up at an all you can eat buffet, you should be allowed to sell your seat to somebody else.

It's a very good analogy. I feel the downvotes come from people who are opposed to copyright in principle. That fine and all but once you accept the premise of copyright then forcing the author to allow reselling defeats the purpose. In case of ebooks for example one could easily resell it like 100 times to all the friends first day so anyone could take a look.

This is especially bad for the authors in case of content based product. If you are selling copies of knowledge you acquired then forcing you to allow reselling means you will have to sell for much higher price or not at all. There are opinions and verdicts of EU courts which makes different rules for content based electronic goods. For example you are not forced to grant refunds with those. I really hope Steam wins the appeal or that courts in other countries won't repeat this verdict (it's not case law in most of Europe so what French court decided hasn't much weight in Germany or Poland or whatever other country.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#157

Post by cannonedhamster » Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

uncoder0 wrote: post #140

I really wonder how this will work with VAC bans and cheating. You can be banned from a game by various means VAC is one of them and Battleye is another popular tool. If a person gets banned from DayZ then they sell their game to buy a new copy that isn't banned does the buyer of their original game remain banned?

VAC bans are account based and can impact multiple games at once. A new user installing the software couldn't be tied to that account. The original user is still banned. That said you might be prevented from reselling as a form of punishment. I'm guessing that it wouldn't be difficult to set up a new account, however it couldn't be associated with the same MAC addresses.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#158

Post by bluecalm » Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

cannonedhamster wrote: post #155

statusquoantefa wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, people here are demanding that after you fill up at an all you can eat buffet, you should be allowed to sell your seat to somebody else.

No they are saying that if you buy a meal, you should be able to package it up and sell it to someone else, which you can do. If I go buy a hamburger, I can walk right out onto the street and if someone else offers me money for it I can sell it. What I can't sell is access, which is what a buffet is, you're not paying for the individual item you're paying for access to the buffet.

So what is the difference exactly if Steam says they sell access to the game for your personal account? Would it that be a good analogy then?

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#159

Post by cannonedhamster » Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 6:12 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #151

jeroenhd wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The inherent value for a digital food also decreases over time. Top of the line graphics from ten years ago look bad in comparison to today. Story driven games get their stories spoilt over time, especially the popular ones. Compatibility with controllers and other such devices depend wildly on backwards compatibility (for example, the xbox one controller had loads of compatibility issues with games that only accepte…

You're still not getting it. It's irrelevant that graphics from 10 years ago aren't as good as they are today because that only matters for games where cutting-edge graphics are part of the selling point of the game (i.e., AAA games). There are plenty of games that don't try for cutting edge graphics and so look the same today as they did when first released, like Cave Story, Celeste, Fez, Braid, etc. The point the p…

It's not that they're not getting it, it's that your point is a poor one. A physical copy also came with the costs of storage, storefronts, retail space, manufacture, shipping, etc. None of that is true now. A digital copy costs almost nothing to store and retrieving that copy is again a nearly costless process. The only person who loses by locking up digital goods is the consumer. You're making the same arguments film studios made about VHS, except VHS caused movie studios to make more money than ever because it forced then to make better stories and movies. What do we get now that there's the digital push? Rehashed super hero stories and 90s nostalgia.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#160

Post by ozymandias12 » Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

cannonedhamster wrote: post #154

hoffs wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steam? How about pretty much every digital storefront? You can't sell prime movies, you can't sell iTunes music and so on. All of these store fronts should ideally allow people to resell all digital content they purchased.

Prime movies is all you can watch rental service. Buying movies from Amazon digital is buying a perpetual license. The distinction is in selling access versus selling goods.

>The distinction is in selling access versus selling goods.

That's the core issue.

We shouldn't let firms dictate ownership. Buying stuff is historically a right to property. The whole discussion is pointless because digital firms are using the regulatory capture, its slow reaction and legal loopholes to dictate ownership, all while doing PPP with the gov and lobbying for its causes.

This whole thing is a temporary theater show (while we discuss the issue, the firms are making money and donating it). People should DEMAND regulatory instruments to react quicker and respect our rights.