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Age Discrimination at Work

nytimes.com

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Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#151

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

foldr wrote: post #144
lacampbell wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you can do is make it harder (not impossible, just harder) to openly mention race as a factor in hiring. Three people may decide independently to base their hiring decision on the race of a candidate without ever bringing it up. Hell they might do it without even admitting it to themselves. Maybe I'm wrong. But if you ever come to Auckland, NZ I could show you a lot of suspicious coincidences.

If what you were saying was true, there'd still be just as much racism in hiring as there was in the 50s. That's patently not the case. And that's not "all you can do". Societal attitudes regarding race have shifted dramatically over the past few decades.

It's improved since the 50s because racism in hiring was legal then, until we passed a law in the 60s banning it. Social attitudes regarding race have shifted dramatically since 1990 (less than half of Americans approved of mixed race marriages then!), but it's not my impression that this has translated to less racism in hiring than 1990.

We also banned discriminating against older people in the 60s, so it's not clear where to go from here.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#152

Post by chopete »

Saying "there is age discrimination in the tech industry" is looking at the symptoms. The root cause is not being able to look at it from the system's viewpoint that causes it.

Tech industry especially the cutting/bleeding edge segment, is a crapshoot. Its survival depends on breaking rules, boundaries, assumptions and being starry-eyed believers

Seasoned engineers appear to "project" they are fixated on things knowingly or unknowingly. If you are doing it unknowingly - time to review one's communication style.

Also, this segment survives (or emerges out of) by riding the technology shifts. For example, here is a shift in the software programming segment. green screen -> desktop -> web -> mobile -> deep learning.

Most companies do prefer to hire senior members who have experience with prior technology segment and are attempting a newer one.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#153

Post by analog31 »

alxlaz wrote: post #97
tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never worked with a significantly older person (in tech anyways), but I would happily lean on them for sniffing out fads. Even in my 30's, it's kinda hard to tell what's a fad and what's not. I really don't understand why there is a bias against age. Programming, for me, is a daily exercise in epistemic humility, and I can't fathom having the kind of arrogance to discount the experience and wisdom that comes wit…

> I really don't understand why there is a bias against age. I've observed this first-hand while doing interviews. Even in companies that insist there's no bias against age, and even with people who insist they don't have any bias, there is nonetheless a preference for hiring: * People who don't have a clear understanding of how much their work is worth and therefore have difficulties negotiating a high salary * Peop…

Fortunately, some of those things can be faked, er..., simulated. ;-) Actually, it's kind of surprising, because a 50+ year old employee, if they've been in the industry at all, has already been faking those things for two or three decades.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#155

Post by commandlinefan »

scarface74 wrote: post #113
commandlinefan wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be - but I’m positive that everybody with over 10 years experience is calling themselves a “senior developer” by now. There’s no level after that, so most everybody over 35 is a senior developer.

There are “principal developers” and architects, but just like with products and the “Innovator’s Dilemma” at some point, your skillset overserves the market. After a certain level of competence, experience doesn’t add value if you’re applying to be a developer for yet another software as a service crud app. Either be happy with salary stagnation and cost of living raises (if that) or move on to greener pastures.

Well, I’d be way happy if I could spend the next 20 years making what I’m making now (adjusted for inflation) doing what I’m doing now, but it seems like there’s a certain age where your salary expectation is $0 - IF you’re in software. I don’t get why this doesn’t happen to doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#156

Post by robmaister »

fiblye wrote: post #3

I was applying to a job with a large game studio. The interview was going pretty well, I'd thought. We talked a bit about how we'd implement certain gameplay elements, the content of the projects we've worked on, and overall it just seemed good and we all seemed to get along pretty well. Then they asked me how old I was. Their response to my age was, "Oh... maybe it's a little late then. You're not too old, but... ki…

I'm 25 work at a relatively large game studio. My boss and the whole chain up (3 people) are all in their late 40s or older. I've learned so much from them as well as the senior engineers that I sit next to.

After my experience here, a low average age for an engineering team is a red flag. You're better off for not having been offered or taking that job.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#157

Post by shitgoose »

peteradio wrote: post #48
fiblye wrote: post #3

I was applying to a job with a large game studio. The interview was going pretty well, I'd thought. We talked a bit about how we'd implement certain gameplay elements, the content of the projects we've worked on, and overall it just seemed good and we all seemed to get along pretty well. Then they asked me how old I was. Their response to my age was, "Oh... maybe it's a little late then. You're not too old, but... ki…

I have a very hard time believing this happened. 26?

they weren't looking for developer, they we looking for a slave monkey that can be trained and worked to death.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#158

Post by cameronbrown »

bluecalm wrote: post #125
cameronbrown wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The last thing I could complain about is people from the generation providing me with all that trying to still work and make money out of it. But GPs comment was about pensioners who want to retire but cannot. Those who enjoy working - sure.

The comment was about "making space" for younger generation. I just don't agree with that view. There is more opportunity then ever and old people still working jobs is not a problem for younger ones (although it might be a problem for them if they counted on longer retirement).

The younger generation need jobs the most, I think it's a dangerous precedent to set if there is no longer an expectation they can find a job. We're already seeing a breakdown in youth culture, attitudes to life, etc.. I know because I am part of that generation, all I see around me are people that believe there's no opportunity without some serious luck.

In the end, older people are worked to death and younger people struggle to progress past Walmart (and no, a degree or a programming gig should not be the some of the only options to jump into a career).

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#159

Post by Viliam1234 »

bachmeier wrote: post #13
factorialboy wrote: post #5

Allow me to provide a contrarian view. I'm not disagreeing that age-discrimination does not exist, however I must say it's not always the case. I'm 35, so I wouldn't qualify as young but neither old. Businesses tend to recruit younger devs for few reasons: - They can be easily convinced to work longer hours - They are typically paid much less However there is one trait in older devs that make them undesirable: - They…

"Businesses tend to recruit younger devs for few reasons: - They can be easily convinced to work longer hours - They are typically paid much less" Older workers and younger workers are paid the same way - they agree on a salary when they start working and that's what they're paid. It's so common on HN to see age discrimination dismissed as not real because of pay. That argument doesn't make any sense. The same goes f…

> Older workers and younger workers are paid the same way - they agree on a salary when they start working and that's what they're paid.

When I was freshly out of university, it was easy to play various tricks on me, such as agreeing on a salary for 40 hours a week, and then convincing me to do a lot of unpaid overtime. (I am not even talking about using various dirty tricks; just asking me nicely would do, because I had no idea of value of my time and zero negotiation skills.) If you tried to do the same thing to me now, I would be much better at keeping my boundaries.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#160

Post by scarface74 »

commandlinefan wrote: post #155
scarface74 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are “principal developers” and architects, but just like with products and the “Innovator’s Dilemma” at some point, your skillset overserves the market. After a certain level of competence, experience doesn’t add value if you’re applying to be a developer for yet another software as a service crud app. Either be happy with salary stagnation and cost of living raises (if that) or move on to greener pastures.

Well, I’d be way happy if I could spend the next 20 years making what I’m making now (adjusted for inflation) doing what I’m doing now, but it seems like there’s a certain age where your salary expectation is $0 - IF you’re in software. I don’t get why this doesn’t happen to doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc.

I keep reading that. But from what I’ve seen from corporate America and outside of the startup culture, if you keep your skills and network current, there are still opportunities. That being said, I’m 45 and the oldest ICs that I know are late 40s early 50s. One has started only applying for remote work.
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