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Richard Stallman spoke at Microsoft Research this week

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Re: Richard Stallman spoke at Microsoft Research this week

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You meant control over the users.

I think it's mostly unfounded, but companies do avoid this for reasons other than wanting to directly control their users. I worked for a company where everything was Apache 2, BSD 3-clause, MIT, or similarly licensed. Since we distributed source regardless, this means less control over the users, even though it means they have the freedom to not pass it on to their own users. Our lawyers absolutely lost their shit a…

Hear that, folks? In a world that's increasingly focused on sustainability and funding for software development, programmers with business aspirations should take note:

If you're working on something that you hope to (eventually?) make money from, but you also want to benefit from the collegial atmosphere of open source, then choose the GPL. This simple decision instantly eliminates a whole subset of would-be competitors, who you now don't have to worry about undermining your business or otherwise threatening your source of income while they rely on being able to use your own work against you, since the GPL automatically places your work in their do-not-touch category.

Re: Richard Stallman spoke at Microsoft Research this week

#152
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the next bullet :)

to be fair, I initially stalled on that one too. Then kept reading and then was like, "oh, okay. Kind of like the 'Mac supports Windows' with a MacBook propping a window open joke. Got it."

I didn't even thought about that joke, seems out of character for Stallman in my view. But nice.

Re: Richard Stallman spoke at Microsoft Research this week

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From [the guidelines]( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ): > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

I get that this comment is downvoted. I honestly didn't understand the other one. I don't care about the points. I don't even know how they are used except for killing comments. I've also read discussions on voting on the site that I adhere to. If I downvote, I also leave a reason why in an answer to give the poster context (except if it's an obvious troll which I hardly think I qualify for). Someone posted what they…

I fully sympathize and agree that downvotes shouldn't be used (here or any other site, generally) to signal disagreement. But they are, and I (mostly) agree with the guidelines about it not being fruitful to ask about it when it happens.

Re: Richard Stallman spoke at Microsoft Research this week

#154
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From [the guidelines]( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ): > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

He didn't comment on it, he asked a question, to which he received an interesting and constructive answer. Your comment on the other hand didn't do any good, and it made boring reading.

He asked a question in the form of a comment – I'm pretty sure that's what 'comment' is referring to in the guidelines; not the content of the comment itself.

And you seem to be wrong about by comment about the guidelines. The other user was informed or reminded about the guidelines and we even had a nice little 'comment chat' about them.

Any kind of online forum inevitably requires participants to remind each other of the rules as it's the principal means of enforcing them.

Re: Richard Stallman spoke at Microsoft Research this week

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GPL grants significantly more freedom to users. Users of MIT-licensed software don't necessarily even have the freedom to see the source code! All they're guaranteed is the ability to see a credit.

Developers are also users of a piece of software. GPL 3 restricts developers in insane ways where they are forced to contribute back any changes and even worse then that it basically infects all code that it touches. It's almost impossible for a commercial product to use GPL 3 licensed software at all. This is basically tyranny.

> Developers are also users of a piece of software.

This is true, and yet your conversation partner still has the winning answer. The point is that, notwithstanding these restrictions on developers—some of whom have the desire to be able to take without reciprocation—the freedom guaranteed by the GPL to users more than makes up for it. We're essentially talking about local versus global maxima here.

> It's almost impossible for a commercial product to use GPL 3 licensed software at all.

On the contrary—GPL is very beneficial, for the reasons I just laid out in another comment[1]. GPL-licensed code is not ipso facto any harder to commercialize than if you were to make the end result available under MIT. It's arguably even easier, since your competitors will have a more difficult time competing with you than if you'd chosen MIT. As Eben Moglen once put it, if you're trying to decide on a license, then by all means you should go with a permissive one—if you're what you're looking for is "a really good license for your competitor to use"[2].

You need only look to history then compare and contrast it with the industry's current preoccupation with funding the development of free and open source software. Red Hat/Cygnus were largely built on top of GPL code. Meanwhile, today's developers entrenched in the GitHub culture, with its permissive-first obsession with licenses like the MIT, have been bamboozled into working against their own interests by giving away their strongest bargaining chip when they decide to go with the flow instead of choosing the GPL.

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20899781

2. https://lwn.net/Articles/235397/

Re: Richard Stallman spoke at Microsoft Research this week

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that this comment is downvoted. I honestly didn't understand the other one. I don't care about the points. I don't even know how they are used except for killing comments. I've also read discussions on voting on the site that I adhere to. If I downvote, I also leave a reason why in an answer to give the poster context (except if it's an obvious troll which I hardly think I qualify for). Someone posted what they…

I fully sympathize and agree that downvotes shouldn't be used (here or any other site, generally) to signal disagreement. But they are, and I (mostly) agree with the guidelines about it not being fruitful to ask about it when it happens.

I'd willingly dock myself points if I just got feedback to the why. This isn't Instagram or Twitter. This site is supposed to be about exploring viewpoints different from yours coming from wicked smart people.

Re: Richard Stallman spoke at Microsoft Research this week

#157
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DMCA takedowns are a remarkably heavy-handed way to deal with software licensing, which is often something that can often be resolved with some good-faith discussion.

I do agree, there is no need to be as draconian as that, but a mass-identifying tool to start the relevant conversations would be pretty cool.

Aren't most concerns with companies who exploit open source software without contributing their changes back?

If we have source code and can determine it is derivative of open source but improperly licensed, does it matter? At that point we have the code and we know it's derivative and thus can infer the license. It's not like the publisher could come back at us for taking it back.

I don't see the value in such a tool other than to abuse people who shared incorrectly. And if I ever shared code incorrectly and got slapped on the wrist for it, that might just be incentive for me to never bother to share again.

Re: Richard Stallman spoke at Microsoft Research this week

#159
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree, there is no need to be as draconian as that, but a mass-identifying tool to start the relevant conversations would be pretty cool.

Aren't most concerns with companies who exploit open source software without contributing their changes back? If we have source code and can determine it is derivative of open source but improperly licensed, does it matter? At that point we have the code and we know it's derivative and thus can infer the license. It's not like the publisher could come back at us for taking it back. I don't see the value in such a too…

> Aren't most concerns with companies who exploit open source software without contributing their changes back?

Companies get away with this because developers don't understand licensing in the first place. Pushing a false message that "once it's out, anything goes" is detrimental to that state of things.

> If we have source code and can determine it is derivative of open source but improperly licensed, does it matter?

Of course it does, a license is a license, you cannot selectively apply only some of it. And yes, if the license is not followed, the original author can revoke consent to redistribution and usage. Have you actually read an open license? The GPL is very explicit on this matter.

> if I ever shared code incorrectly and got slapped on the wrist for it, that might just be incentive for me to never bother to share again.

That's not a problem. Opensource doesn't run on generosity, but on publicity - a currency that can be converted into actual cash. If you don't share your "left pad", sooner or later someone else will share his own version and reap the rewards. The time when we had to beg companies and individuals to share, is long gone.

Re: Richard Stallman spoke at Microsoft Research this week

#160
post #59

Microsoft has come a long way. Obligatory Richard Stallman website reference: https://rms.sexy/

Not according to the Ziff-Davis article they haven't:

- Microsoft's Mark Russinovich presumably heard what Stallman said at his talk (which was said to be a "mostly standard talk"). Stallman's talk usually includes a clear description of how the free software movement he started predates the open source development methodology by over a decade and stands philosophically distinct as well. Yet Russinovich claims Stallman's talk is "OSS-related" which is right in line with why the open source development methodology was started: corporate cooption of a social movement that was posing a real threat to proprietary software.

- ZDNet's article continues on this theme at the top and bottom of the article (as to be expected of corporate news which makes up the majority of computer news coverage and repeater/pointer sites like this one): "Each time Microsoft makes another open-source-related move these days, there are still always folks on Twitter or in comments on blog posts who caution that Microsoft hasn't really changed and never will be a true friend of open source. This change in Microsoft didn't happen overnight, but the momentum is growing.". Microsoft like "open source" instead of "free software" because open source doesn't question proprietary software, and thus doesn't question delivering proprietary software to OSes that respect a user's software freedom (the freedoms to run, inspect, share, and modify published computer software). The same opposition is as it was before, only the PR campaign has changed from namecalling ("Linux [sic] is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches") to appearing warmly welcoming ("Microsoft [heart symbol] Linux [sic]"). They dare not call a complete OS GNU/Linux (which it most likely is in both quotes) because that might bring software freedom to mind (I'll bet Stallman mentioned this as this too is part of every talk he's given for many years).

What Ziff-Davis calls Stallman's "distaste for Microsoft" is clearly-explained and principled objections based in the facts of how computers work and an ethical examination of how we ought to treat each other with computers. But in corporate media it's necessary to downplay principled examination and explication in order to diminish the severity of the objection.

Microsoft wants users to run a GNU/Linux system as a VM on top of Microsoft's system as that helps Microsoft collect payments (licensing or rent, depending on the details of hosting) and, perhaps more importantly, spy on literally every bit of data that the user's OS deals with. Spying is big business and directly tied to proprietary control over the user. Microsoft offers a service to help users host their VM on Microsoft-owned hardware (so-called "cloud computing") too. Just to show the stark difference: Stallman, by comparison, explains what "cloud computing" actually means in https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#CloudComp... and why you should only run VMs on free software systems you own and control.

No, Microsoft hasn't changed. In fact, nothing of substance has changed because ethics are too deeply rooted for any change and computing has only really altered in that more people are being offered computing services more than ever before. Software proprietors are still unmotivated by the same principles that software freedom activists are. Microsoft's change is quite superficial and PR-related: Microsoft has shifted their campaign from more honest but harsh terminology to more deceptive terminology which appears friendlier. The social harm of proprietary software continues apace.

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